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AngryMormon wrote:
Sorry you got upset! However, is it possible that we are reading too much into this guy? Maybe the guy was just trying to be funny and it didn’t go well? That’s what I thought when I originally read the post.
Personally, I have learned that I can be hyper sensitive about perceived slights. Especially when it relates to something that is a hot topic with me.
What I don’t understand is why the guy would then ask you about your career? Seems like an odd transition to me!
I don’t really understand how this would be a joke, but I don’t think the guy intended to offend me. I think that’s part of the reason it bothers me. But I went up and talked to him after, so I am not holding a grudge, but it is a weird thing to do.It’s normal to ask people about their spouses names-just not in front of their spouses…and the rest of the Sunday school class.
I also envision the guy trying to get your husband to rat out on your full name out of an attempt at an icebreaker, or whatever. Obviously I wasn’t there, but this doesn’t sound like an evil sexist man who expects women to not make eye contact and walk 2 paces behind. And then he’s teaching class and you turn it into something sexist so what is he supposed to do? Stop and apologize? I see lots of posts on here lately where women are trying to make even the tiniest individual offense as a church-wide sexist behavior by all men. And honestly, that seems sexist more than this guy.
Also, Brown, as I pointed out it seems to be considered more polite in English-speaking society to ask someone a person’s name, rather than the person themselves. This is probably because they don’t want to hurt that person by making them think they’ve been forgotten. And that’s not a gender thing either.
That said Americans do have some weird and wacky names and spellings for themselves. Mitt and Newt and Oral anyone?! Or Krystyfyr or Urethra or DeTroiiyt or Hamflux or Billy-Chevy or Pantherella?
invisible woman—Urethra?–for real/!!! That is almost sadistic to name a child!!! Brown, have you ever had someone talk to you right in front of your face as if you were not in the room? In front of your entire ward? It is extremely rude. I’m sorry, but I do take offense to that. When sexist things continue to happen-of course they are going to bug me. I went up and talked to the guy after, so hopefully he won’t do this to someone else. It would have been offensive to my husband if he had talked to me as if my husband was not in the room. It is a rude thing to do. SamBee, I agree with you totally that people ask people other people’s names-but like you said it’s so that the person won’t know they forgot. When the person is sitting right there they are obviously going to know.
People ignore me all the time, and it’s not because I’m a woman or I’m married, I’m not. I just tend to keep my head below the parapet. And I’m a 30+ single, which doesn’t help. I haven’t had a proper calling for about six months now, simply because I believe I’ve been overlooked. On one occasion, I was speaking to a woman whose father had come over from Saskatchewan, and who had been sitting next to me in priesthood. Her friend asked “What’s he saying?” right in front of my face.
On another occasion, I complimented someone on the comments he’d made in a class. Right in the middle of one of my sentences, he wandered off and talked to someone else as if the conversation had never occurred. Now I’d like to think it’s because I’m a windbag, but I hadn’t actually said much to him. He’s divorced. I wonder why.
On another occasion, I was walking down the street, and saw two missionaries on the other side of the road. One of them said to the other, “Pretend we haven’t seen him.” Now since I was never a fan of that particular elder, it didn’t bother me, but I wish I’d shouted something over to prick his smug little bubble. (I could mention other things about that guy, but I won’t) I just grinned to myself, and let them keep on their way, letting them assume I hadn’t heard that comment.
Now I could continue, but it would all be rather hateful, and negative, but these experiences are common, and not always meant in a hurtful way (except perhaps the last one)… sometimes you’ve got to roll with these things. They’re generally stupid and gauche rather than cold and calculating.
Brown wrote:I also envision the guy trying to get your husband to rat out on your full name out of an attempt at an icebreaker, or whatever. Obviously I wasn’t there, but this doesn’t sound like an evil sexist man who expects women to not make eye contact and walk 2 paces behind. And then he’s teaching class and you turn it into something sexist so what is he supposed to do? Stop and apologize?
I see lots of posts on here lately where women are trying to make even the tiniest individual offense as a church-wide sexist behavior by all men. And honestly, that seems sexist more than this guy.
I think everyone agrees that the teacher didn’t mean to cause offence and that it might not have even been about gender specifically – just thoughtlessness.
In relating this to racism the issue becomes clearer to me. I think that it is possible for people who have been mistreated either individually or historically because of their class to become extra sensitive and defensive. Sometimes they can become aggressive and “in your face” about it as an activist. We might not like how a particular person has responded to mistreatment and how that might have colored/skewed their perspective but that does not invalidate their perspective.
Mistreatment has been done both individually and collectively. Mistreatment can still take place in subtle forms that we (as non-members of the mistreated class) might not even notice. When mistreatment is normal and systematized, then people can easily cause offence without intending to. (I was reading some very interesting stuff over at BCC about the sexism inherent in the uses of the words preside and dominion).
What is a mistreated person to do? To whom do they plead their case?
Whoa.. thats just slightly ridiculous. Hopefully he did feel bad, thats just plain rude. SamBee, I am sorry you have been treated like that. It is never good to get treated poorly by anyone-even if you don’t care that much. Here’s my take on things like this (and I’m an aggressive person, so that is part of it.) if I don’t tell someone that something is not ok, it is my own fault if it happens to me again. I’m also not helping to prevent that type of situation from happening to someone else. If someone makes an honest mistake that is fine-but I think it’s important to make them aware of it. Roy, thanks. All of that rings very true. I cringe every time I hear either of those words. They are sometimes used right after ‘husband and wife are equal’ like in the proclamation to the family. I will never understand how you can preside over something in equality.
Brown….interesting that you feel that the women here are “looking” for the slightest offense from men. It is not men but the way things are set up. I’ll agree with you that we can be “touchy” after the church condones polygamy in reverse and I have the potential to have 40 husbands one day and if my first husband doesn’t like it well then as DC 132 states the sin is on him and he can burn in hell. Or when you are always wondering if you are going to have to share your wife in the celestial kingdom. Oh and I get to determine your clothes because we don’t want you to be “walking pornography” to us lustful women because you are responsible for our impure thoughts. Also please remember that to question us is to disobey god because we “preside”. How could I forget that in the most sacred place on earth the temple that you will have to covenant to your wife NOT to God directly because she comes first in the order of things.
Until then give me a break! It is not looking for “insult” when you have never had a voice to begin with and are finally asking to speak.
Women in this church have not been allowed to disagree with anything, even the sacredness of their sexual marriage. We have had to share husbands, marry those we were “assigned” to, be told in scripture that if we do not share our husbands that we are sinning, that we must cover this or that up, that we are responsible for men’s thoughts and virtue, the list goes on and on. The kicker though is to be threatened continually that if we disagree with the priesthood/prophet in any matter that we are sinning and should repent and have a more “submissive and humble heart” or know our place and feel no need to “lobby” for rights.
We can not even determine our own underwear! No that is for a group of old men that understand nothing of feminine hygiene or body image issues but they have the priesthood. It is 2013 and a woman may finally pray in GC the saddest part of that is that most did not even realize that no woman had before.
I love the “gospel” and am grateful for it in my life. I do not want the “church” though to treat my daughter the way it has treated me.
HSAB, I guess the point is that people do silly things. I generally don’t try to keep score. That missionary’s away, but that divorced guy’s still around. I don’t particularly hate him, I just don’t bother talking to him anymore. What’s the point? If the man knows hopefully that’s it over. If he does it again, then you have a problem. For now, forgive him his stupidity.
There are a lot of gender issues in the church and they’re not all female ones. For example, I was discussing last year how there’s nowhere a man can change his baby’s diaper in our chapel… the facility’s in the ladies’ toilet. It’s never crossed anyone’s mind apparently that a) we might one day have a single dad in or a widower, or that b) men look after babies too. (Several men often bring their babies into priesthood) Besides, I’m sure mothers would like a rest too.
Dax wrote:interesting that you feel that the women here are “looking” for the slightest offense from men. It is not men but the way things are set up.
Thanks Dax, I totally agree with this. It is not men who are to blame or women who are to blame. It’s the culture, the problems it perpetuates and the people who support those problems. They may know or they may not know. Most of them probably don’t know, and don’t mean harm by it. If we don’t say anything, don’t raise awareness that there are problems that hurt people then we can’t expect anything to change.SamBee wrote:If the man knows hopefully that’s it over. If he does it again, then you have a problem. For now, forgive him his stupidity.
There are a lot of gender issues in the church and they’re not all female ones. For example, I was discussing last year how there’s nowhere a man can change his baby’s diaper in our chapel… the facility’s in the ladies’ toilet. It’s never crossed anyone’s mind apparently that a) we might one day have a single dad in or a widower, or that b) men look after babies too. (Several men often bring their babies into priesthood) Besides, I’m sure mothers would like a rest too.
SamBee, I don’t know why you are assuming I don’t forgive him. I took care of it when it happened and it’s done. I don’t expect to have a problem with this guy in the future.I really want to emphasize that feminism covers both men and women. What you describe is a feminist issue. It honestly bothers me personally just as much as anything else. Part of the reason I feel so strongly about feminism is that my dad works (and has for my whole life) 18 hour days and sleeps 3-4 hours a night. My mom has never really worked. I feel for my dad, he has such a difficult life and it honestly pains me to see him killing himself like that. I wish so much that my mom would help out, (her youngest kid is in high school) but she has bought into the idea that it is only my dad’s responsibility to provide a living. I’m not trying to talk badly about my mom. I just want to illistrate that feminism is about equality, which goes for both men and women.
Quote:SamBee, I don’t know why you are assuming I don’t forgive him. I took care of it when it happened and it’s done. I don’t expect to have a problem with this guy in the future.
I’m not… I’m just saying it’s about all you can do. But if he does it again…
Quote:I really want to emphasize that feminism covers both men and women. What you describe is a feminist issue.
Well, call it what you will, there’s a few issues surrounding the treatment of men in our church. We get little choice in what we’re allowed to wear in church, even less than women.
And an unfair burden is put on men to support their families so they get to spend less time with their kids. They also have more church responsibility than women and that isn’t fair either. Agree. A more appropriate division of time and labor would benefit both genders. One good thing the church does perhaps is encourage men to express themselves emotionally. But I’ve never been a weepy type…
I think we are moving forward but at a snail’s pace and slower than society at large.
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