Irksome Approach to Chapel Cleaning

[Anonymous]

Long time ago I was in charge of the Stake Farm. It was my job to round up volunteers to go pull weeds or pick tomatoes or such. I hated begging people to go and ended up filling many of the assignments myself. Then I had a brainstorm. We could just ask members for 10 bucks so we could hire some temps to do the work. I figured almost any member would pay 10 bucks not to have to go to the stake farm. I floated the idea around. Well you can imagine the response I got. I was missing the point it was all about service bla bla bla.

Still think it was a good idea, I would pay 10 bucks not to clean the chapel

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[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

Long time ago I was in charge of the Stake Farm. It was my job to round up volunteers to go pull weeds or pick tomatoes or such. I hated begging people to go and ended up filling many of the assignments myself. Then I had a brainstorm. We could just ask members for 10 bucks so we could hire some temps to do the work. I figured almost any member would pay 10 bucks not to have to go to the stake farm. I floated the idea around. Well you can imagine the response I got. I was missing the point it was all about service bla bla bla.

Still think it was a good idea, I would pay 10 bucks not to clean the chapel

I wouldn’t pay, not because of the whole service thing (which is a standard argument) but because I think the church has plenty of money to pay for real janitors. That’s why I do my own little “civil disobedience” and just don’t do it. If everybody did that the church would have to make a change.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Cadence wrote:

Long time ago I was in charge of the Stake Farm. It was my job to round up volunteers to go pull weeds or pick tomatoes or such. I hated begging people to go and ended up filling many of the assignments myself. Then I had a brainstorm. We could just ask members for 10 bucks so we could hire some temps to do the work. I figured almost any member would pay 10 bucks not to have to go to the stake farm. I floated the idea around. Well you can imagine the response I got. I was missing the point it was all about service bla bla bla.

Still think it was a good idea, I would pay 10 bucks not to clean the chapel

I wouldn’t pay, not because of the whole service thing (which is a standard argument) but because I think the church has plenty of money to pay for real janitors. That’s why I do my own little “civil disobedience” and just don’t do it. If everybody did that the church would have to make a change.

I had the same thought. My son needs interaction with other members and could use the money, why not pay him to do our familys’ chapel cleaning commitment? I decided no, because I feel the church shouldn’t be putting this on the backs of the members.

I don’t think it’s all about service either. Service is just free labor when the servee can afford to pay someone.

I also believe in voting with one’s feet. While I know the church imposes discipline if you start a movement, nothing is wrong with simply deciding not to do something. And if enough people don’t do it, and the leaders can see past the possible pride or blindness that comes from considering all policies inspire, non-cooperation can effect change eventually.

[Anonymous]

As someone who does not pay tithing, I find it extra important to find ways to contribute to the church that I feel are personally sustainable. I currently do most of that by holding a calling with the cub scout program, feeding the missionaries, and helping with the occasional EQ move. I could personally justify cleaning the church building under the same reasoning.

[Anonymous]

I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

As someone who does not pay tithing, I find it extra important to find ways to contribute to the church that I feel are personally sustainable. I currently do most of that by holding a calling with the cub scout program, feeding the missionaries, and helping with the occasional EQ move. I could personally justify cleaning the church building under the same reasoning.

This makes sense from the perspective of someone who has had your life experiences.

I feel let down by the church in so many ways — so many IMPORTANT ways – in my lifetime. To the point I feel very little loyalty on just about any count. I don’t like to besmirch the church to others outside our faith, or to traditional believers, but I don’t feel I have to do anything because I owe something for not being a full tithe-payer.

But that isn’t to disagree with anyone else who feels that lack of tithing means contributions should be made in other ways to partly make up for it.

[Anonymous]

BJE wrote:

I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.

I think that’s why we don’t have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don’t participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual – but that’s not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I’m more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven’t even come to church in years. One of them comes every month – the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I’m more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven’t even come to church in years. One of them comes every month – the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.

This is one reason I like Dave Ramsay’s Financial Peace University program. He works from a Christian perspective. He advocates first building a reserve for unemployment or calamity. Note his plan below:

Baby Step 1 – $1,000 to start an Emergency Fund

Baby Step 2 – Pay off all debt using the Debt Snowball

Baby Step 3 – 3 to 6 months of expenses in savings

Baby Step 4 – Invest 15% of household income into Roth IRAs and pre-tax retirement

Baby Step 5 – College funding for children

Baby Step 6 – Pay off home early

Baby Step 7 – Build wealth and give!

Notice how aggressive giving occurs after you get your fiscal house in order. It’s in Baby Step 7. So if you do run into financial trouble, you are TRULY SELF-RELIANT. So that means you aren’t dependent on the church for rent, food and groceries, and utilities, while also obligated to clean the chapel.

It’s always bothered me how the church teaches self-reliance, but only after you pay the church tithing. If paying tithing puts you in a deficit position, requiring church assistance, from a church perspective that’s OK. Very self-centered. Further, it puts the church in a position not to be accountable in any way to its members. And history has shown, the leaders at the top appear to NEED such accountability.

It’s one reason I guess I’m at peace with not having a TR, not having status, not being fully invested in the church mission.

Now, if you have people who simply won’t do what is necessary to put themselves in a better position, then perhaps Chapel cleaning is in order. We had one person who would take training courses to get him out of the low paid labor market, but he would refuse to take the final exam, or finish the courses. Why would someone do that? Because he didn’t want to do the work after he completed the program. That is the only reason I could think of. Someone like that who has no interest in getting self-reliant, and looks to others for support should probably be required to do work for their assistance.

Someone who paid tithing all their lives and then runs into a rough spot (partly because they gave away their reserve to the church over the years) should get a break.

I have tried to rely on the church for non-financial needs I’ve had (adoption, emotional support for a mission, counseling) and there are never resources available. So I would be VERY reluctant to ever rely on them again.

[Anonymous]

I like Ramsey as well. It’s not the only way, but it does work.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

BJE wrote:

I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.

I think that’s why we don’t have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don’t participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual – but that’s not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I’m more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven’t even come to church in years. One of them comes every month – the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.

In my ward it’s always 8:00 Saturday morning. Also, my ward boundaries are about 1 mile by 2 miles. I live a mile and a half from the church. Our whole stake is only about 6 miles by 5 miles and it’s rural not city.

[Anonymous]

BJE wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

BJE wrote:

I had to miss my cleaning assignment this past Saturday because I had to work. The person in charge today did not want to let me off the hook and wanted me to do it next Saturday but again I have to work. The Saturday after that I’ll be out of town on vacation then the Saturday after that I have a Taekwondo tournament to go to. Then our quarter for cleaning is over. Assigning people do do something against their schedule is not a good workable solution to building cleaning.

I think that’s why we don’t have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don’t participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual – but that’s not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I’m more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven’t even come to church in years. One of them comes every month – the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.

In my ward it’s always 8:00 Saturday morning. Also, my ward boundaries are about 1 mile by 2 miles. I live a mile and a half from the church. Our whole stake is only about 6 miles by 5 miles and it’s rural not city.

“Benefits” of living in the rural Northeast US. It’s about an hour and a half drive between the furthest east branch and furthest west branch in my stake. Those two are sort of bookends to a southern tier of units, with three wards in between. Mine is the center one (the only ward that meets in the stake center, all but one of our buildings is single unit). For me it’s about 45 minutes to those two branches, but to the farthest north one it’s about 1:15 and I go through one other ward to get there. The branch president of that branch is 1:30 away from the stake center because he lives on the far north end of the stake, and some of the people in the eastern branch are also over an hour away. Fifteen years ago there were two new stakes created, one south and one northeast of us. Prior to that we had units that were two hours away with members 2:30.

I would absolutely not show up at 8 am Saturday – it just wouldn’t happen. It’s not my work schedule, I work M-F. Saturday morning is when I catch up on my sleep and relax a bit before doing the stuff I usually have to do at my house. It’s the one day have to have a leisurely morning, eat a real breakfast, etc. It is my time.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

BJE wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

I think that’s why we don’t have a set time to show up and all do it together. Again, I don’t participate, but I think those who do often do it Tuesday during Mutual – but that’s not a rule/schedule and I know someone who does it early Saturday morning (the least likely time I would do it). I think the people who do it Tuesday just do it out of convenience, their kids are there and they drove there anyway, the building is unlocked, etc. (Most members in my ward live at least a few miles, and up to 20 or so miles, from the meeting house. I live 10 miles away).

Just to throw this out there, and I know not everybody agrees with this or thinks this way, but I do believe that people receiving church assistance (there are several long term ones in my ward) should be assigned weekly if they are physically able. I’m more willing to give the ones who hold a calling and contribute in other ways a pass, but some of the several in my ward haven’t even come to church in years. One of them comes every month – the first Sunday to meet with the bishop and give him the bills to pay. Otherwise they are unseen and unheard from.

In my ward it’s always 8:00 Saturday morning. Also, my ward boundaries are about 1 mile by 2 miles. I live a mile and a half from the church. Our whole stake is only about 6 miles by 5 miles and it’s rural not city.

“Benefits” of living in the rural Northeast US. It’s about an hour and a half drive between the furthest east branch and furthest west branch in my stake. Those two are sort of bookends to a southern tier of units, with three wards in between. Mine is the center one (the only ward that meets in the stake center, all but one of our buildings is single unit). For me it’s about 45 minutes to those two branches, but to the farthest north one it’s about 1:15 and I go through one other ward to get there. The branch president of that branch is 1:30 away from the stake center because he lives on the far north end of the stake, and some of the people in the eastern branch are also over an hour away. Fifteen years ago there were two new stakes created, one south and one northeast of us. Prior to that we had units that were two hours away with members 2:30.

I would absolutely not show up at 8 am Saturday – it just wouldn’t happen. It’s not my work schedule, I work M-F. Saturday morning is when I catch up on my sleep and relax a bit before doing the stuff I usually have to do at my house. It’s the one day have to have a leisurely morning, eat a real breakfast, etc. It is my time.

In the “Mormon corridor” where I live there is an LDS church on every corner so to speak. Two to three wards in a building too.

My brother lives in Rexburg, Idaho, home of BYU-Idaho, he said that in his ward boundaries there are three non member households.

[Anonymous]

Cleaning is something innocuous and easy I can do to build some social capital. However, if I can’t do it at a given time, I can’t do it. No guilt. I can’t do what I can’t do – and I won’t feel guilty about not being able to do what I’m not able to do.

Also, I don’t like the assignment model, in theory, but, in practice, it is the only approach that has any chance of working most of the time.

[Author]

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