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I believe that there are many examples in scripture that in the last days there will be a sifting. One such indication is the symbolism of the wheat and the chaff. Note that the term of sifting comes from the ancient method of sifting wheat. In this symbolism the wheat and tears grow together until the time of harvest. In the harvest the wheat is gathered, and the chaff is burned. There is also the symbolism of Zion verses Babylon. This is generally understood to mean that the sifting that will take place will separate the “righteous” from the “wicked”. Anciently the righteous were understood to be those that seek to make covenant with G-d and to “keep” their covenants. In contrast those that refuse to make covenants with G-d or do not keep their covenants were understood to be the wicked.
In the Book of Mormon the wicked are called “stiff nicked”. This is because they refused to bow their head as part of the ritual (ordinance) by which covenants are made.
I am not sure that a sifting will take place except that those that do not make and keep covenants tend to – of themselves – kick against the pricks (which I believe is to criticize the priesthood brethren – I am not sure that BYU faculty counts) and persecute the Saints to one degree or another.
Watcher wrote:
I believe that there are many examples in scripture that in the last days there will be a sifting. One such indication is the symbolism of the wheat and the chaff. Note that the term of sifting comes from the ancient method of sifting wheat. In this symbolism the wheat and tears grow together until the time of harvest. In the harvest the wheat is gathered, and the chaff is burned.There is also the symbolism of Zion verses Babylon. This is generally understood to mean that the sifting that will take place will separate the “righteous” from the “wicked”. Anciently the righteous were understood to be those that seek to make covenant with G-d and to “keep” their covenants. In contrast those that refuse to make covenants with G-d or do not keep their covenants were understood to be the wicked.
In the Book of Mormon the wicked are called “stiff nicked”. This is because they refused to bow their head as part of the ritual (ordinance) by which covenants are made.
I am not sure that a sifting will take place except that those that do not make and keep covenants tend to – of themselves – kick against the pricks (which I believe is to criticize the priesthood brethren – I am not sure that BYU faculty counts) and persecute the Saints to one degree or another.
Watcher, I’m just wondering, do you think that StayLDS or other groups like us that ask questions, criticize or take issue with the gospel, church or
leadership are in danger of being on the bad side of the “sifting”? Are you a voice of warning?
Minyan Man wrote:
Watcher wrote:
I believe that there are many examples in scripture that in the last days there will be a sifting. One such indication is the symbolism of the wheat and the chaff. Note that the term of sifting comes from the ancient method of sifting wheat. In this symbolism the wheat and tears grow together until the time of harvest. In the harvest the wheat is gathered, and the chaff is burned.There is also the symbolism of Zion verses Babylon. This is generally understood to mean that the sifting that will take place will separate the “righteous” from the “wicked”. Anciently the righteous were understood to be those that seek to make covenant with G-d and to “keep” their covenants. In contrast those that refuse to make covenants with G-d or do not keep their covenants were understood to be the wicked.
In the Book of Mormon the wicked are called “stiff nicked”. This is because they refused to bow their head as part of the ritual (ordinance) by which covenants are made.
I am not sure that a sifting will take place except that those that do not make and keep covenants tend to – of themselves – kick against the pricks (which I believe is to criticize the priesthood brethren – I am not sure that BYU faculty counts) and persecute the Saints to one degree or another.
Watcher, I’m just wondering, do you think that StayLDS or other groups like us that ask questions, criticize or take issue with the gospel, church or
leadership are in danger of being on the bad side of the “sifting”? Are you a voice of warning?
Let’s be very careful here. We routinely moderate judging of anyone on the forum by anyone else. I think this may be asking someone to do something we’ve specifically told them not to do. That said, the first question itself is not without merit as there are people who believe people like participants on the forum are in danger, and there are members here who believe they may be in danger. God/Christ will be the ultimate judge and we do not know what the criteria will be other than apparently justice (fairness), mercy, and grace will all play a part.A reiteration of the multiple ways to interpret the word “sifting” in this thread. 1) It seems that the OP had heard some rumors of some BYU professors getting dismissed for expressing views against the brethren or current church policies. I do not have any knowledge to confirm or disprove this. It would not surprise me. Speaking badly about your employer while in the course of your employment is generally not taken well. If I were BYU administration, I would simply opt to not rehire them once their contract/tenure came up for renewal. I understand that LDS professors must also carry a current TR. This means that to remove a BYU professor, the church could just decline to renew the TR and that would mean the professor would no longer meet the qualifications for the position (this would save BYU administration from going into detail about what the professor did or said that was objectionable and why it was objectionable). In short, I do not expect anything that might look like a coordinated “purge” but a quiet and gradual “sifting” could definitely be happening without making too many waves.
2) There seems to be a “sifting” process that happens all the time in all groups. This includes new members coming in and old members going out. (you could even describe the process of people joining and leaving this site as a “sifting.”) Perhaps the word sifting could also be used to describe people aligning themselves within certain groups within the larger group. I believe that the church has taken steps to discourage groups within the larger LDS membership. For example there was at one time prayer circles that would meet and you needed to be invited. These groups were discontinued. I even believe that having the high priests meet with the elders is a further example of the church working to diminish divisions from within the organization.
3) There is also a “sifting” that is predicted to happen in the end of times. This could take place in many different ways but it is perhaps most simply demonstrated by the Heaven and Hell dichotomy. If heaven and hell exist and all people are destined for one or the other then there must be some sort of mechanism for “sifting” at some point.
4) I really like Nibbler’s observation about the Wheat and the Chaff being different traits within each of us. In this perspective, the “sifting” happens as we analyze our own tendencies and attempt to grow some traits and restrain others.
Great points Roy. I’ll give my own perspective on a couple of them. 1. BYU, unlike many other universities, is actually much more “at will.” All of my children went there and one also has a masters from there in which he got to know a couple professors very well from working closely with them daily in lab and research settings. BYU has no tenure per se, but they do have “continuing faculty status” which can be gained after 6-7 years and which more or less indicates automatic contract renewal. Continuing faculty status is gained by an apparently rigorous annual review process looking at several aspects including scholarship, teaching, and citizenship (that is university citizenship, which does include personal behavior on and off campus). They also have ranks of assistant, associate and full professor to work through. Unlike most public universities, BYU faculty don’t have a union. For the most part administration can dismiss anyone they want relatively quickly (at most within three years which they can also make a living hell). I agree that the TR requirement and Elder Holland’s “musket fire” speech last year might indicate that some who think they might be safe (and some who know they are taking risks) might be the subject of such a purge, and those things could be the writing on the wall. We also don’t know what they’re being told internally.
2. Convert retention and self identifying as members has long been a challenge to the church. In most of the US outside the Corridor 35% is an average activity rate (it’s closer to 55% in the Corridor.) Outside the US 35% would mostly be a dream, with much of Europe, Asia, and South America being at 20% or below. Matt Martinich’s “Growth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” blog often reflects these trends and the current monthly entry focuses on Mexico. Mexico has the second highest church membership of any country outside the US with 1.5 million members of record (Brazil is close behind). Of those, in the 2020 Mexico census only 338,000 (rounded) self reported as members (a rounded 23% of what the church reports). This is a link to the blog:
https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/” class=”bbcode_url”> I’m not really going to address the end times idea because I don’t believe that’s where we actually are. Jesus’s apostles and disciples fully believed the second coming would be during their lifetimes – 2000 years ago. I think we’re no closer today than they were.
I think “sifting” could be a normal things for organizations like the church, not necessarily in and of itself as “bad”. It all depends on how it is done and to what extremes. Phrased another way, it could be “pruning” which is healthy for fruits being produced from trees, right?
In business, it can be prioritization or focus for performance and progress.
For political parties it could be realignment or course correction to core values.
For the church it could be clarifying teaching or emphasizing gospel teaching, asking for individuals to commit to agreed upon church standards and rules.
The devil is in the details of how it is done, and if people over – sift and go against Christ-like approaches in attempting to do a natural form of working in the vineyard.
Also, any branch that gets pruned is probably not gonna like it. Some analogies don’t work perfectly here. But my point is… probably agreeing with nibbler above…”it has been around since 1830.”
Where there is religion, there is sifting. Some good, some bad.
Minyan Man wrote:
Watcher wrote:
I believe that there are many examples in scripture that in the last days there will be a sifting. One such indication is the symbolism of the wheat and the chaff. Note that the term of sifting comes from the ancient method of sifting wheat. In this symbolism the wheat and tears grow together until the time of harvest. In the harvest the wheat is gathered, and the chaff is burned.There is also the symbolism of Zion verses Babylon. This is generally understood to mean that the sifting that will take place will separate the “righteous” from the “wicked”. Anciently the righteous were understood to be those that seek to make covenant with G-d and to “keep” their covenants. In contrast those that refuse to make covenants with G-d or do not keep their covenants were understood to be the wicked.
In the Book of Mormon the wicked are called “stiff nicked”. This is because they refused to bow their head as part of the ritual (ordinance) by which covenants are made.
I am not sure that a sifting will take place except that those that do not make and keep covenants tend to – of themselves – kick against the pricks (which I believe is to criticize the priesthood brethren – I am not sure that BYU faculty counts) and persecute the Saints to one degree or another.
Watcher, I’m just wondering, do you think that StayLDS or other groups like us that ask questions, criticize or take issue with the gospel, church or
leadership are in danger of being on the bad side of the “sifting”? Are you a voice of warning?
I think we are all in danger – if not then this life is not much of a test of anything. It is my personal belief that we are warned about a lot of things – but this is not so we can figure out what is happening to others but rather to figure out things specific to ourselves. I have often pondered the warning of Jesus to his apostles at the last supper concerning that one would betray him. I can envision John turning to James and saying, “I’ll bet that is Judas – he has sure been acting strange lately.” Instead, I am of the mind that the apostles (except for one) understood much more than we think as they asked themselves and Jesus, “L-rd, is it I?”
Perhaps I envision the final judgment different than others. My opinion – I do not think that the L-rd will say, “You just missed being saved in the Celestial kingdom by just a very small minor measure – sorry.” Rather, I think it may be more like the L-rd asking us, “Have you determined what level of glory you want for the eternities?” And some may answer, “At first I was considering the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom but now having seen that all that the Celestial Kingdom of glory entails and the fact that all my friends are in another kingdom of glory – I have decided I will enjoy another glory other than Celestial”.
I have pondered that the gnashing of teeth thing following the judgment will be when it is discovered who all we will be spending eternity with.
Watcher wrote:Perhaps I envision the final judgment different than others. My opinion – I do not think that the L-rd will say, “You just missed being saved in the Celestial kingdom by just a very small minor measure – sorry.” Rather, I think it may be more like the L-rd asking us, “Have you determined what level of glory you want for the eternities?” And some may answer, “At first I was considering the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom but now having seen that all that the Celestial Kingdom of glory entails and the fact that all my friends are in another kingdom of glory – I have decided I will enjoy another glory other than Celestial”.
I have pondered that the gnashing of teeth thing following the judgment will be when it is discovered who all we will be spending eternity with.
I once heard a talk given by Elder Aidukaitis where he pitched this same idea. The way he described it, our judgment will be something similar to an interview with a bishop in his office, and we’ll get to decide which kingdom we want to live in. I like that idea and it’s the one I currently subscribe to.
It does make a lot of sense. So much importance gets placed on our agency, that using it to select our eternal residence doesn’t sound out of line. If His kingdom is run anything like like our modern church, even those who aren’t “worthy” should be able to get themselves in. Anyone can lie their way into baptism, onto a mission or into the temple. The problem for the people who do that is, at the very least, they seem to not get as much out of their church experience, if they aren’t outright unhappy. I wouldn’t be surprised if were allowed to “lie” our way into the Celestial Kingdom, find out it isn’t for us and later transfer to a lesser one.
The question I haven’t been able to answer for that theory is what’s the cost? If you can choose to take $1, $100 or $100,000 with no stipulations, who wouldn’t take the hundred thousand? All things being equal, everyone should be picking the top kingdom and staying. Though, going off the thought of becoming gods ourselves and creating our own worlds and spirit progeny, maybe not everyone would want that and would choose a lower kingdom. But then, why would someone pick the telestial option over the terrestrial one?
Not a question I have the answer to.
Don’t wait for the afterlife. Start living in the kingdom you want
today. To that I’d add to not pay attention to labels others want to give your kingdom or to get caught up in comparisons. Find your kingdom that makes you happy.
I’m not really concerned about the afterlife or what someone else labels “celestial.”
If life is a test, and I’m not convinced it is, I like the idea that it is a test of how we live HERE and NOW – not a test of where we will end up at some future time. Phrased differently, it is a test of who we “are becoming” – not who we “will be”.
I agree with Old Timer, I’m not sure this life is any kind of test. Why would God the Loving Parent whose stated purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of [humans] do that to their children? Do we do that to our own children? And we’re super flawed! I also don’t buy the multiple kingdoms part, and view that as mostly a tool the church uses to induce fear and guilt. The multiple kingdoms thing doesn’t pass the smell test of multiple authors in multiple books (and at least one of the multiple books must be the Bible).
If it’s coming it’s of no real consequence to me, as I’ve already been sifted 
30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said — that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA’s in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees’ children or something. That ship has sailed…
PazamaManX wrote:
Watcher wrote:Perhaps I envision the final judgment different than others. My opinion – I do not think that the L-rd will say, “You just missed being saved in the Celestial kingdom by just a very small minor measure – sorry.” Rather, I think it may be more like the L-rd asking us, “Have you determined what level of glory you want for the eternities?” And some may answer, “At first I was considering the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom but now having seen that all that the Celestial Kingdom of glory entails and the fact that all my friends are in another kingdom of glory – I have decided I will enjoy another glory other than Celestial”.
I have pondered that the gnashing of teeth thing following the judgment will be when it is discovered who all we will be spending eternity with.
I once heard a talk given by Elder Aidukaitis where he pitched this same idea. The way he described it, our judgment will be something similar to an interview with a bishop in his office, and we’ll get to decide which kingdom we want to live in. I like that idea and it’s the one I currently subscribe to.
It does make a lot of sense. So much importance gets placed on our agency, that using it to select our eternal residence doesn’t sound out of line. If His kingdom is run anything like like our modern church, even those who aren’t “worthy” should be able to get themselves in. Anyone can lie their way into baptism, onto a mission or into the temple. The problem for the people who do that is, at the very least, they seem to not get as much out of their church experience, if they aren’t outright unhappy. I wouldn’t be surprised if were allowed to “lie” our way into the Celestial Kingdom, find out it isn’t for us and later transfer to a lesser one.
The question I haven’t been able to answer for that theory is what’s the cost? If you can choose to take $1, $100 or $100,000 with no stipulations, who wouldn’t take the hundred thousand? All things being equal, everyone should be picking the top kingdom and staying. Though, going off the thought of becoming gods ourselves and creating our own worlds and spirit progeny, maybe not everyone would want that and would choose a lower kingdom. But then, why would someone pick the telestial option over the terrestrial one?
Not a question I have the answer to.
It seems to me that the only lie one would be telling would be to themselves. I am thinking that everyone would want to spend eternity being among those they feel comfortable with and doing things that they enjoy. I am kind of an example. I do not enjoy money – my wife, thankfully, handles all of it. I also do not have attachments to things – mostly because I do not like wasting my time taking care of things which is required for whatever one values. I would much rather be in the wilderness enjoying nature than at a tourist resort. If the Celestial Kingdom is all about sitting on an opulent golden throne barking out orders to “lessor” intelligences of glory – I am not interested – I would rather be exploring the possibilities of manipulating black holes and seeing what is possible.
SilentDawning wrote:
If it’s coming it’s of no real consequence to me, as I’ve already been sifted30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said — that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA’s in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees’ children or something. That ship has sailed…
I have speculated that when a prophesy is spoken of that someone currently alive will live to see the 2nd coming -that it is a reverence that there are individuals of the current generation that will be translated.
DarkJedi wrote:
I agree with Old Timer, I’m not sure this life is any kind of test. Why would God the Loving Parent whose stated purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of [humans] do that to their children? Do we do that to our own children? And we’re super flawed!I also don’t buy the multiple kingdoms part, and view that as mostly a tool the church uses to induce fear and guilt. The multiple kingdoms thing doesn’t pass the smell test of multiple authors in multiple books (and at least one of the multiple books must be the Bible).
I do not have the optimism that you have that all the diverse individuals in this life will live happy together forever. I also do not believe that anyone that does not deserve to feel guilty will do so. I do believe in the concept of being careful what we ask for or invest in. Mostly I think that not much will be that different than this life pertaining to what we enjoy doing and who we enjoy doing it with. I have never believed much in a one size fits all kind of entitlement thinking.
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