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Watcher wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
If it’s coming it’s of no real consequence to me, as I’ve already been sifted
30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said — that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA’s in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees’ children or something. That ship has sailed…
I have speculated that when a prophesy is spoken of that someone currently alive will live to see the 2nd coming -that it is a reverence that there are individuals of the current generation that will be translated.
A little ward history (I have lived in the same ward for over 30 years but was not here at this time – well, I was, but I wasn’t a member). Back in the 70s a sister in our ward joined the church after marrying a member (they met in college). Our ward did not exist in those days, a branch was formed in the early 80s and we became a ward in the late 80s. This husband moved here with is wife and went to work, she was a stay-at-home mother but did assist some in his business. All of 4 of her siblings lived here (farmers) and all joined the church in the 70s. They all got their patriarchal blessings in the late 70s/early 80s, all by the same patriarch. Our hero was the youngest of the family and at least three of them that I know of were promised in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior’s coming “in the flesh” (apparently this patriarch liked to do that and rumor has it he was directed to stop doing it at some point). Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings’. She still believes she will.
I’ve heard the apologetic BS that “in the flesh” could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that – BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.
DarkJedi wrote:
Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings’. She still believes she will.I’ve heard the apologetic BS that “in the flesh” could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that – BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.
Well I believe the resurrection is supposed to happen after the event of His coming, so they’d miss it either way. Perhaps they can watch it from some heavenly bleachers, but that wouldn’t be “in the flesh”.
I’ve always mentally raised an eyebrow anytime a patriarchal blessing mentions someone witnessing/taking part in an event related to the second coming.
I was once heard a 60ish y/o lady in poor health testify over the pulpit (admittedly she was one of the ward crazies) that her PB said she would walk with the saints to Missouri as part of the second coming. That was about 15 years ago, and I doubt she’s in any better condition to make that cross country trek.
My mother-in-law’s says something about her seeing it in her lifetime, so if that’s to be believed we’ve got another 30-40 years at most. But then, if I remember correctly, her late mother’s also said the same thing.
Many patriarchs have have already incorrectly placed their chips when playing second coming roulette. If no one is supposed to know the hour or day, then they, as you said, have no business narrowing it down to the narrow window of someone’s life. But, maybe one of these days one of them will get lucky and be right.
I like the idea of patriarchal blessings but more as good life advice and goal setting and not at all prognostication and future divining. I like even better the idea of actual patriarchs and matriarchs giving words of counsel and blessing to their posterity.
Roy wrote:
I like the idea of patriarchal blessings but more as good life advice and goal setting and not at all prognostication and future divining.I like even better the idea of actual patriarchs and matriarchs giving words of counsel and blessing to their posterity.
As might be guessed I don’t put a lot of stock in my patriarchal blessing. My blessing was not a major component of my faith crisis but it did play a very small part, and of course it doesn’t help that patriarchal blessings can be part of the well meaning but misguided advice we get when in faith crisis (similar to “read the BoM more” “pray more” “fast” “go to the temple” etc.*). At this point in my life as I near retirement I can go through the blessing that I got 40 years ago and say “Yeah, that’s spot on” and “That was garbage, didn’t happen and isn’t going to” (there seems to be more of the latter, maybe sometime I’ll make an actual list).
That said I don’t think the patriarchal blessing is total garbage, it can be as you say Roy “good life advice.” One thing mine says is “always pay tour debts and watch unnecessary debt,” which is usually good advice. My own parental figures would have given the same advice, having lived through the Great Depression (they did in fact give such advice but more importantly they lived the principle). When our adult children ask advice (a couple of them do) we are happy to pass along our wisdom but it ends there – what they actually do is up to them. So I agree actual advice from actual matriarchs and patriarchs is better. In their absence, advice from other sages/elders that is sought might also would seem to be of value as long as it’s understood it can be taken or left.
Sort of related to the topic, my patriarchal blessing gives several “I bless you with” things toward the end. Included in those are to come forth in the first resurrection as a “a Savior on Mount Zion.” All the blessing seem to be predicated on doing the things in the patriarchal blessing. So I’m curious now. I know we all get the tribe thing (I’m Ephraim like almost everybody else, and I put no stock in that except that I do understand the symbolism of being adopted into the House of Israel), but is everybody similarly promised to come forth in the fist resurrection? Are there other things that are common?
*I was told all of these things in my faith crisis, which lasted a decade, and none of them did a darn thing except maybe make it worse. Some of them have different roles in my ongoing faith transition.
DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:
SilentDawning wrote:
If it’s coming it’s of no real consequence to me, as I’ve already been sifted30 years ago we were at 11:59 pm of the 12:00 midnight Second Coming. The clock must be ticking AWFULLY SLOWLY. I personally agree with what others said — that the threat of a sifting has been on the books for over a century. I think JS or one of the GA’s in the early church said that the Second Coming might even happen in the lifetime of attendees’ children or something. That ship has sailed…
I have speculated that when a prophesy is spoken of that someone currently alive will live to see the 2nd coming -that it is a reverence that there are individuals of the current generation that will be translated.
A little ward history (I have lived in the same ward for over 30 years but was not here at this time – well, I was, but I wasn’t a member). Back in the 70s a sister in our ward joined the church after marrying a member (they met in college). Our ward did not exist in those days, a branch was formed in the early 80s and we became a ward in the late 80s. This husband moved here with is wife and went to work, she was a stay-at-home mother but did assist some in his business. All of 4 of her siblings lived here (farmers) and all joined the church in the 70s. They all got their patriarchal blessings in the late 70s/early 80s, all by the same patriarch. Our hero was the youngest of the family and at least three of them that I know of were promised in their patriarchal blessings that they would see the Savior’s coming “in the flesh” (apparently this patriarch liked to do that and rumor has it he was directed to stop doing it at some point). Anyway, all but our hero are dead and she is in her late 80s and swiftly declining. The likelihood she is going to see the second coming is about as remote as her siblings’. She still believes she will.
I’ve heard the apologetic BS that “in the flesh” could have been referring to after the resurrection. But it is just that – BS. That patriarch (now long dead) had no business telling people that.
It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.
I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?
I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.
DarkJedi wrote:
So I’m curious now. I know we all get the tribe thing (I’m Ephraim like almost everybody else, and I put no stock in that except that I do understand the symbolism of being adopted into the House of Israel), but is everybody similarly promised to come forth in the fist resurrection? Are there other things that are common?
I’m also Ephraim, with mine specifically highlighting the trait of leadership in the church. No thanks.
Mine does mention “coming forth in the morning of the first resurrection” at the end.
As for the advice and wisdom it imparts, it’s fairly standard stuff you’d hear from others at church, with a few things more tailored to a millennial. Go to college and get a degree, serve a mission (the “I bless you with” attached to that one ended up being way off
🙄 ) and be careful with videos, music and electronic devices were some of the things mentioned.My best friend at the time got his from the same patriarch around the same time I got mine. We compared things mentioned in our blessings and there were quite a few similarities.
PazamaManX wrote:
My best friend at the time got his from the same patriarch around the same time I got mine. We compared things mentioned in our blessings and there were quite a few similarities.
Three of my children have theirs from the same patriarch, a guy known to our family and who I consider to be a friend (he moved away a few years ago). Theirs also have many similarities.
I hadn’t really thought about it before, leadership is associated with the tribe in mine as well. I guess if leadership includes being a bishop’s counselor, high counselor, YMP, etc., then it is what it is. I doubt I will be a bishop or anything (and that’s just fine with me).
Watcher wrote:
I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?
I take the liberty to restate the question. What if some things that are promised are in error (for whatever reason – maybe part of the mind of the patriarch ends up on the page as he filters the revelation) and were not going to be fulfilled no matter what the recipient might do. However, the recipient might take inspiration and motivation from these things to make positive changes in his life and ultimately achieve after death what we believe to be his celestial reward. Is that problematic if the patriarch has the best of intentions to get it right but even if he gets it wrong the blessing will still serve to motivate?For my answer, I think it is important to understand my backstory. My life was rocked by a traumatic event that I had falsely believed wouldn’t happen because of the blessings that I had earned from G-d. I was serving as ward mission leader at the time. My wife was pregnant with our third child and she had been asked to serve in a demanding calling as Primary President. My wife usually has difficult post birth experiences and we expressed our reluctance to our bishop. He reassured us that if we were faithful in taking this calling that this birth would be easier. We accepted and he set DW apart and reiterated in the blessing in the name of the Lord that the pregnancy and birth would be made easier. Our child was stillborn and it rocked us to the core.
Our bishop meant well and had every intention of G-d fulfilling the promises that our bishop made on G-d’s behalf. It did also motivate us to accept the calling and maybe someone could argue that we will be blessed for it in the next life.
However, DW and I felt lied to and betrayed on top of the grieving for our stillborn daughter. For me personally, it is very hard for me to hear things promised at church that I feel are not supported or verifiable. I do not think that anyone is lying. They are speaking the truth as they understand it and hope for it to be. However, should there be a duty to investigate and vet the accuracy of such promises before they are made over and over by well intentioned individuals and church leaders? I feel that there should be such a duty and that is why this type of practice concerns me.
Watcher wrote:
It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.If PB are revelation at all, and I have my serious doubts, they are certainly only meant for the individual. I believe the reason members are discouraged from sharing has nothing to do with sacred things and little to do with things meant only for them. I suspect the main reason we’re discouraged from sharing is that everybody will realize how generic and alike they really are. And, not sharing protects the church when those who are blessed to see the second coming in the flesh (or any other “out there” promise) doesn’t happen. Mine appears to be longer than most I’ve seen, but you could slap any other name on there and it would be just as applicable – despite its length, it’s pretty generic and I bet very similar to many others given by that same patriarch around the same time.
As to human errors, yes, we all make them, we’re human. I am willing to own up to my mistakes and take responsibility for them. Most church leaders are not, probably because that would demonstrate fallibility. I know I’m not infallible, many do not know that they are also not infallible and try to hide behind the “cloak of the priesthood.” There’s that old saying “Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it.” Beyond Uchtdorf’s hint of the idea mistakes may have been made, the church could gain a lot of traction by admitting it and its leaders are not always right and sometimes they don’t treat people (or groups of people) right.
Quote:I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?
It’s not the human errors that are BS, it’s the apologetics. I have no problem with apologists (defined as defenders of the faith) themselves, but I also understand why some (like Terryl Givens ) eschew the label. Like everything else, I can believe what apologists say or not – I have free will in that respect and I exercise it. The problem I really have is with some of the apologetics (not apologists per se) themselves. Let’s take a fictional modern Job as an example. Let’s say our Job consistently does everything he’s supposed to do, multiple daily prayers, family prayer, FHE, accepting any and all callings and doing his best, fasting more than just fast Sunday, reading the BoM every day, going to the temple regularly and doing work for his own ancestors, paying a generous tithe on more than gross and generous with other offerings as well – you name it, he does it, the truest and bluest of all church all the time Mormons. Then a big bump in the road comes along, let’ say he loses his job and can’t find one on which he can support his family. And for the sake of argument, let’s say he does take multiple minimum wage jobs where he’s working 7 days a week 12-18 hours a day (he’s doing what he can). His bishop’s advice is continue doing what he’s doing (including all the church stuff, but especially fasting, prayer, and reading the BoM) and he will be blessed with a job. Ditto from the SP. Our Job has faith that they are correct. This goes on for over a year, while he’s already been doing all of these things leading up to this time all of his life (including of course being an Eagle Scout, serving a mission, and marrying a worthy woman in the temple). What is the likely response he’ll get from the True Believing Mormon (TBM)? “You’re not doing enough” and/or “You’re not doing it right.” (Don’t try to tell us that’s not true, more than one of us here have been there and done that.) That guy is going to believe some combination of he’s done something wrong or offended God in some way, that there’s some reason he is being cursed, that he is unworthy of God’s blessings, God does not love him, and he’s a worthless piece of crap and similar thoughts. He’ll eventually come to the realization that all of the prayer and fasting and reading the BoM and paying tens (or hundreds) of thousands in tithing, etc., do not bring blessings at all and God and the church are not what he thought they were. But his TBM friends (and maybe his wife who is seeing all this first hand and also suffering) say, “Maybe the answer answer to your prayer was no or not yet” and a myriad of other BS excuses (that’s what they are, BS, because the TBM can’t admit to himself that it isn’t so and it doesn’t really work that way because he hasn’t had the experience).
The question here, although misconstruing what I said, is do I believe people will be held responsible for their errors in this life (or their standing in this life)? My answer is no, as I have previously stated I believe God neither blesses nor curses people in this life. Members and leaders on the other hand can be very judgmental. While I’m at it, I also hope (I usually say believe but it’s really more of a hope than a belief, I’m just speaking Mormonese) the atonement of Jesus Christ to be universal and it won’t affect their standing in any future state either. I bring it up because if I could spare anyone from enduring the extreme pains of a faith crisis, I would, and if apologists would just be honest and not make BS excuses there would be fewer people who do suffer.
Old Timer uses a Harry Potter analogy sometimes. Harry Potter could see thestrals, but most others could not. It is explained that only those who had seen death and had an emotional connection to it could see thestrals. Those who had not could not see the thestrals and some didn’t even believe they exist or doubted that those who could see them actually saw them. You have not given any indication here that you have experienced a crisis of faith with it’s accompanying deep, dark pain (there are levels of the dark night of the soul). Most of us here see the thestrals, I understand why you don’t/can’t. Our job here is not to try to convince anyone they can’t see the thestrals or that the thestrals are something they aren’t, nor is it to convince those who can’t see the thestrals that they actually exist. What we do is empathize (and sympathize) and validate. We’re not here to convince anybody they aren’t experiencing or didn’t experience anything they are/did. Just because it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to me, and just because it happened to you when you added X+Y and got Z doesn’t mean it’s going to work the same way with me. I also have not gone to a grove of trees and asked God to forgive me and then seen a vision of God (or Gods). That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to Joseph Smith (or at least JS believed it happened whether I do or not).
Quote:I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.
I am not that thin skinned. Not everything is logical Spock (or Tuvok or T’Pal). There are many things we humans can’t explain with science or faith. I would guess that Vulcans are resistant to or immune from Jedi mind tricks. Few humans are, thus apologetics (and the church itself) can thrive. It’s not well well known, and it’s only inferred and not depicted in movies and TV, but the Jedi mind trick is temporary. In a short while the individuals who are vulnerable and victims of such tricks end up wondering what the heck they’re doing an why.
Roy wrote:
He reassured us that if we were faithful in taking this calling that this birth would be easier. We accepted and he set DW apart and reiterated in the blessing in the name of the Lord that the pregnancy and birth would be made easier.
In re-reading my response I feel I may need to emphasize a point. My bishop made us promises at least in part because he needed DW to accept the calling invitation. He needed to motivate us to fulfill the needs of the local church unit.I have concerns when a church leader makes promises on behalf of G-d that they might reasonably know that they cannot guarantee (if they were to do any investigation or critical thinking on the matter) and makes these promises in order to extract commitments from church members to serve church needs.
Roy wrote:
Roy wrote:
He reassured us that if we were faithful in taking this calling that this birth would be easier. We accepted and he set DW apart and reiterated in the blessing in the name of the Lord that the pregnancy and birth would be made easier.
In re-reading my response I feel I may need to emphasize a point. My bishop made us promises at least in part because he needed DW to accept the calling invitation. He needed to motivate us to fulfill the needs of the local church unit.I have concerns when a church leader makes promises on behalf of G-d that they might reasonably know that they cannot guarantee (if they were to do any investigation or critical thinking on the matter) and makes these promises in order to extract commitments from church members to serve church needs.
I think making promises like your bishop did for the reason he did is not at all uncommon. In fact I think it’s the norm. Church leaders often use fear, guilt, and shame as motivation and even when they don’t make explicit promises they’re using an underlying fear of saying no to a calling or not sustaining your leaders. Sometimes they very explicit, and I agree it is troubling when they know promises are not guaranteed. But They always have the (BS) “I guess it wasn’t God’s will” to fall back on. That said, I think that under normal circumstances while some leaders are manipulating to get what they need/want, I don’t think they’re generally doing it nefariously or maliciously and don’t intend to cause harm (but then mostly won’t apologize either).
I’m sorry if this thread has opened an old wound for you Roy. Just going by my own experience where the incidents leading to my faith crisis happened nearly 20 years ago now, I’m generally “over” stuff. While less frequent as time goes, sometimes I’m sailing along happily in life and some little thing that I might not even suspect comes out of nowhere and triggers some old deep emotion. I generally know to avoid triggers or I’ve learned coping strategies when I know I’m in danger (like at church), but sometimes I’m caught off guard. Faith crisis is such an emotional thing I’m not sure it ever goes away completely.
Right. I don’t know if it would make me feel better if my bishop had just gone rogue in promising what he did. As it stands, I feel that this is just standard operating procedure (with some allowance for some bishops relying more or less on this tactic than others). I feel that the church will not change this practice because 1) the church benefits and 2) there is significant scriptural precedent for promising blessings for compliance.
There is zero incentive to conduct a clinical study to ascertain how effective such promises actually might be at changing results. It is theoretically possible that such promises do have a statistically significant effect. Just because I had a negative result is not any greater proof than someone else having a positive result – it is just anecdotal.
However, I do take great issue with people suggesting that if you just follow these simple X steps you will get Y result when I know from personal experience that it doesn’t always work that way. Unfortunately, the example of the electrons and turning on the light bulb creates just that sort of expectation. Do X and get Y.
Roy wrote:
There is zero incentive to conduct a clinical study to ascertain how effective such promises actually might be at changing results. It is theoretically possible that such promises do have a statistically significant effect. Just because I had a negative result is not any greater proof than someone else having a positive result – it is just anecdotal.I think the other problem here might be in that what you see as a blessing I might not. I have said this before, but as I look around I don’t see that I’m more or less blessed than my non-Mormon (including irreligious) neighbors. If anything I might be less blessed if we look only at temporal things. Non-tangible blessings are difficult to define and quantify, thus as you say a study would be of little value. I know no two people are in exactly the same situation but if there two identical people in identical situations, one might very well say they are blessed while the other says they are not blessed (or perhaps even cursed).
Quote:However, I do take great issue with people suggesting that if you just follow these simple X steps you will get Y result when I know from personal experience that it doesn’t always work that way. Unfortunately, the example of the electrons and turning on the light bulb creates just that sort of expectation. Do X and get Y.
I whole heartedly agree, X+Y does not always equal Z. If people were totally honest with themselves and their own feelings and emotions, far fewer would testify of Moroni’s promise (recognizing there are people who are honest but just don’t speak up). I have many years ago spent a decent amount of time trying to prove Moroni’s promise to no avail – I have never received a witness that the BoM is “true.” I am however satisfied with a testimony that the book is a book about Jesus Christ and it can and does bring people closer to God and Christ. I do not however believe it to be a history of ancient peoples nor that characters like Nephi, Alma or the Brother of Jared ever existed. That’s different than electrons though – electrons are physical science. It is provable that when you turn on the light switch the light bulb is going to come on (unless there is something physically preventing it from doing so). Moroni’s promise is not physical science and is not subject to the same laws.
(And just for the record, I think there’s good reason not everybody gets a confirmation of Moroni’s promise. If read in context from the beginning of the chapter it’s not a promise given to everybody. But even that is contingent on the idea there were actually Lamanites.)
DarkJedi wrote:
Watcher wrote:
It is my understanding that patriarchal blessings are not revelation for the general church. I have also speculated that patriarchal blessings can be contingent on various factors. I speculate that this is a primary reason that blessings given to an individual should not be made public. Like you – I have also wondered about human errors. I know I have made many myself in pursuit of magnifying my callings and priesthood responsibilities.If PB are revelation at all, and I have my serious doubts, they are certainly only meant for the individual. I believe the reason members are discouraged from sharing has nothing to do with sacred things and little to do with things meant only for them. I suspect the main reason we’re discouraged from sharing is that everybody will realize how generic and alike they really are. And, not sharing protects the church when those who are blessed to see the second coming in the flesh (or any other “out there” promise) doesn’t happen. Mine appears to be longer than most I’ve seen, but you could slap any other name on there and it would be just as applicable – despite its length, it’s pretty generic and I bet very similar to many others given by that same patriarch around the same time.
As to human errors, yes, we all make them, we’re human. I am willing to own up to my mistakes and take responsibility for them. Most church leaders are not, probably because that would demonstrate fallibility. I know I’m not infallible, many do not know that they are also not infallible and try to hide behind the “cloak of the priesthood.” There’s that old saying “Catholics say the pope is infallible but don’t really believe it; Mormons say the prophet is fallible but don’t really believe it.” Beyond Uchtdorf’s hint of the idea mistakes may have been made, the church could gain a lot of traction by admitting it and its leaders are not always right and sometimes they don’t treat people (or groups of people) right.
Quote:I am a little curious considering you opinion as posted on this forum. Do you believe that such errors (or BS as you have noted) will have any effect on anyone’s standing beyond this life? If not (thinking that such is consistint with your thoughts) – why do you bring it up? Why are you concerned?
It’s not the human errors that are BS, it’s the apologetics. I have no problem with apologists (defined as defenders of the faith) themselves, but I also understand why some (like Terryl Givens ) eschew the label. Like everything else, I can believe what apologists say or not – I have free will in that respect and I exercise it. The problem I really have is with some of the apologetics (not apologists per se) themselves. Let’s take a fictional modern Job as an example. Let’s say our Job consistently does everything he’s supposed to do, multiple daily prayers, family prayer, FHE, accepting any and all callings and doing his best, fasting more than just fast Sunday, reading the BoM every day, going to the temple regularly and doing work for his own ancestors, paying a generous tithe on more than gross and generous with other offerings as well – you name it, he does it, the truest and bluest of all church all the time Mormons. Then a big bump in the road comes along, let’ say he loses his job and can’t find one on which he can support his family. And for the sake of argument, let’s say he does take multiple minimum wage jobs where he’s working 7 days a week 12-18 hours a day (he’s doing what he can). His bishop’s advice is continue doing what he’s doing (including all the church stuff, but especially fasting, prayer, and reading the BoM) and he will be blessed with a job. Ditto from the SP. Our Job has faith that they are correct. This goes on for over a year, while he’s already been doing all of these things leading up to this time all of his life (including of course being an Eagle Scout, serving a mission, and marrying a worthy woman in the temple). What is the likely response he’ll get from the True Believing Mormon (TBM)? “You’re not doing enough” and/or “You’re not doing it right.” (Don’t try to tell us that’s not true, more than one of us here have been there and done that.) That guy is going to believe some combination of he’s done something wrong or offended God in some way, that there’s some reason he is being cursed, that he is unworthy of God’s blessings, God does not love him, and he’s a worthless piece of crap and similar thoughts. He’ll eventually come to the realization that all of the prayer and fasting and reading the BoM and paying tens (or hundreds) of thousands in tithing, etc., do not bring blessings at all and God and the church are not what he thought they were. But his TBM friends (and maybe his wife who is seeing all this first hand and also suffering) say, “Maybe the answer answer to your prayer was no or not yet” and a myriad of other BS excuses (that’s what they are, BS, because the TBM can’t admit to himself that it isn’t so and it doesn’t really work that way because he hasn’t had the experience).
The question here, although misconstruing what I said, is do I believe people will be held responsible for their errors in this life (or their standing in this life)? My answer is no, as I have previously stated I believe God neither blesses nor curses people in this life. Members and leaders on the other hand can be very judgmental. While I’m at it, I also hope (I usually say believe but it’s really more of a hope than a belief, I’m just speaking Mormonese) the atonement of Jesus Christ to be universal and it won’t affect their standing in any future state either. I bring it up because if I could spare anyone from enduring the extreme pains of a faith crisis, I would, and if apologists would just be honest and not make BS excuses there would be fewer people who do suffer.
Old Timer uses a Harry Potter analogy sometimes. Harry Potter could see thestrals, but most others could not. It is explained that only those who had seen death and had an emotional connection to it could see thestrals. Those who had not could not see the thestrals and some didn’t even believe they exist or doubted that those who could see them actually saw them. You have not given any indication here that you have experienced a crisis of faith with it’s accompanying deep, dark pain (there are levels of the dark night of the soul). Most of us here see the thestrals, I understand why you don’t/can’t. Our job here is not to try to convince anyone they can’t see the thestrals or that the thestrals are something they aren’t, nor is it to convince those who can’t see the thestrals that they actually exist. What we do is empathize (and sympathize) and validate. We’re not here to convince anybody they aren’t experiencing or didn’t experience anything they are/did. Just because it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to me, and just because it happened to you when you added X+Y and got Z doesn’t mean it’s going to work the same way with me. I also have not gone to a grove of trees and asked God to forgive me and then seen a vision of God (or Gods). That doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to Joseph Smith (or at least JS believed it happened whether I do or not).
Quote:I apologize if these questions bother you – I am attempting to understand the logic behind your thinking. Thanks for your efforts to converse with me. I find you to be interesting.
I am not that thin skinned. Not everything is logical Spock (or Tuvok or T’Pal). There are many things we humans can’t explain with science or faith. I would guess that Vulcans are resistant to or immune from Jedi mind tricks. Few humans are, thus apologetics (and the church itself) can thrive. It’s not well well known, and it’s only inferred and not depicted in movies and TV, but the Jedi mind trick is temporary. In a short while the individuals who are vulnerable and victims of such tricks end up wondering what the heck they’re doing an why.
My experiences appear to be greatly different than yours. For example, I have come to believe that any principle or spiritual instruction that is given by revelation can only be understood by revelation. Attempting to apply what one thinks to be their own wisdom to such things will inevitably end in disappointment and failure. I have also concluded that the purpose of our mortal probation is not to read scriptures, pray, attend church or any such thing. The only reason or logic to such behaviors is to train and prepare for things that will be. To illustrate this logic, I would refer to white water rafting – which I have done with my family for over 30 years. I would tell those that I was training to be rafting guides that the regardless of what has happened thus far on a river (regardless of how fun or terrifying) the most important thing a guide must do is to turn downstream and prepare themselves and their raft for what is coming next.
I would also make reference to my experience while fulfilling an obligation in the military during the Vietnam conflict. That is to play close attention to those that have experienced serious conflict and survived it. However, there seems to be a problem with those that have no combat experience in relating to what veterans are trying to express. I have seen lives threatened because people tend to hear what they want to hear. There are always exceptions by I have found that in general, the critics of those with experience are more likely to mislead others in their criticism than what the veteran that survived are trying to express. It amazes me how often this misconception is presented as desirable in characters of movies and other entertainment by those that have no real experience themselves. Once again there are always exceptions – I learned that regardless of how bad or foolish the orders of my commander seemed at the time (even considering their experience or lack of it) – it is far better that I do all within my power to carry out such orders as best I could — rather than to criticize and make confusion in the ranks. More will die because of confusion than being united and working together.
But in this life, we have our agency to make what we will of whatever circumstances we face.
Watcher, we’ve already established that our experiences and points of view are quite different. I appreciate and respect that you have a testimony of revelation and following the prophet and that works for you. I do not have that same testimony. But I do have a testimony that the same Heavenly Father who loves you also loves me just as much. Quote:But while he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him. Then the son said to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.” But the father said to his slaves, “Quickly, bring out a robe—the best one—and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 And get the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; (Luke 15:20-23 NRSV)
Math has often been called the “language of science.” With electrons X+Y always equals Z. But faith and spirituality are not sciences, and X+Y does not always Z. It might add up for you, but it doesn’t mean it will for anyone else. True science can be replicated, faith and spirituality cannot.
Your veteran analogy is apt relating to faith crisis. I am a veteran but I was a cold warrior. I have not seen combat. My nephew is one of the many who committed suicide after tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. I do not understand his mindset when he committed suicide, and there was no indication he was planning to do so (we all met with a counselor too, there was nothing anyone could have done). Just like those of us who not experienced combat cannot really relate to what happens in the minds and spirits of those who have, those of you who have not experienced a faith crisis cannot really relate to what happens in the minds and spirits of those who have. Relating to combat, you can see the thestrals and I cannot. Relating to faith crisis, I can see the thestrals and you cannot.
By the way, you did exactly as I said the true believer would do in your last post. You told me I can’t understand revelation except through revelation, therefore I’m the one who is wrong and flawed because I haven’t done whatever I need to do to in order to receive the revelation (be that pray enough, read the BoM enough, go to the temple enough, whatever it is). You simply postulated another reason as to why I think patriarchal blessings are not revelation, and it’s circular reasoning to boot (I don’t understand revelation because it hasn’t been revealed to me but because it hasn’t been revealed to me I don’t understand revelation). While I do believe revelation is somewhat rare, I also believe it exists and that I have at times been inspired. I also believe that much of what RMN calls revelation is not. JS was much the same, a lot of D&C came out of his own head (at least in part because he believed everything he thought came from God). But that doesn’t mean they, and I, don’t get any revelation at all. I’m not going to go into detail here, and I have alluded to components of my faith crisis several times in this thread and other current threads. But I will say revelation – or what I thought was revelation – was the major part of my own faith crisis. In my rebuilt faith I have a much clearer understanding of how God works with me (I might even go so far as to call it revelation – definitely an epiphany).
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