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“I have cause to believe. I have cause to doubt. I choose to believe.”
To me, this is the only approach that makes sense. If there are things that can’t be proven one way or the other, and for which I have both cause to believe and cause to doubt, I can choose to believe. If it’s something that CAN be proven one way or another, I don’t need to choose to believe or not. If it’s something I have cause to doubt, but not cause to believe (or insufficient compared to the cause to doubt), I can’t force myself to believe by just choosing to do so. To me, there are precious few things that are unprovable, but the existence of God is probably one of them.
hawkgrrrl wrote:If there are things that can’t be proven one way or the other, and for which I have both cause to believe and cause to doubt, I can choose to believe.
To me this easily applies to faith in deity but I’m not so sure about some of the aggravating parts of LDS church history. BY knew JS and as I recall made a passing remark about his mistakes but still believed in him. Bushman and other historians believe in spite of knowing all the black, white and gray. Is it a matter of choice for them or have they weighed the “facts” and with a few intangibles come down on the side of belief in a logical and rational process? Sometimes I wonder if some believe in spite of what they know.
GBSmith wrote:Sometimes I wonder if some believe in spite of what they know.
I think this is certainly the case sometimes, especially when one has invested heavily in a certain way of life, or there are other motivations for toeing the line (like family). These kinds of things can easily tip the scale toward choosing to believe. Forgive the crass analogy, but in some ways it’s like holding on to a stock that others would have sold off long ago.
doug wrote:Forgive the crass analogy, but in some ways it’s like holding on to a stock that others would have sold off long ago.
Makes very good sense to me – good analogy.
Roy wrote:We were talking about the parable of the sower and the 4 soil types and this lent itself well to talking about how to become the good “believing” soil. I don’t believe that people just choose to believe. There are many variables such as personality types, life experiences, support from ward & family etc, that make these choices more or less possible depending on their presence and severity.
I would like to re-iterate that IMHO belief needs to make sense within one’s mental framework or assumptive reality. Assumptive realities usually change very slowly and may have been amassed gradually since childhood. I think that the process of mental gymnastics is part of tying the pieces of this mental framework together.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I can’t just start believing that pigs fly for example. I could declare that pigs fly. I could make arguments for how aerodynamic pigs are in flight. But I don’t know that I could talk myself into that belief. I think that my preexisting mental framework or assumptive reality would need to allow for the possibility of flying pigs. I further believe that I have very limited control over a portion of the things that influence my mental framework (personality types, life experiences, etc).
I am coming to experience peace as I modify my beliefs to better conform to my reborn assumptive reality. I am simultaniously working to build bridges between my nascent faith and the terminology and concepts of the LDS framework so that I may continue to participate, contribute, and belong.
i read over your first post. thanks for sharing. no matter what we do in our lives “believing in what we do” is so important. Case in point is the simple act of going to church. Are you going because you believe in it ? Or are you going for other reasons ?
I rent a room from a landlord and I have had a few problems since moving in. One was bedbugs (the bed was included with the room) and the other was a heating problem. Both were very frustrating issues. Yet I reasoned that for me to feel good about being here was that I had to believe that living here was a good thing. I had to look after the bedbug problem myself (landlord reimbursed me) and I had to hassle the landlord about the heating problem too. The bedbugs are gone and the heating problem is partially fixed but manageable but all in all i believe it’s a good place to live. The roommates I have are great (though imperfect) but for the most part i’m fairly happy here.
Same principles apply to church. Go because you believe in it or that you benefit. Misery happens when you do something you don’t believe in. Happiness comes from believing in things you do in your life that you feel good about. I hope what I shared with you helps.
BLC
GBSmith wrote:At sacrament meeting today one of the speakers made the point that faith was just a matter of deciding to believe. I was struck by that since my loss of faith came from a combination of not feeling a connection with the Spirit and not being able to explain problems with JS, polygamy, the BoM, historical problems, etc.. Do I just decide not to think about them and say they don’t matter? I’d appreciate other’s opinions.
I personally take Joseph’s definition of faith — it is a gift of God based on our actions. But how that works is not simple nor easy to understand, much less explain.The World takes faith to mean “an unjustified belief”, for the most part. That’s what Sam Harris was writing about in his book “
The End of Faith“. I make decisions about what I’m going to believe, all the time. Hopefully informed decisions. I don’t think of the conclusions I make as “faith”, but OTOH I do hope they are true or at least useful.
HiJolly
HiJolly wrote:… it is a gift of God based on our actions. But how that works is not simple nor easy to understand, much less explain.
[snip]
I make decisions about what I’m going to believe, all the time. Hopefully informed decisions. I don’t think of the conclusions I make as “faith”, but OTOH I do hope they are true or at least useful.
Well said, HiJolly.It seems to me that faith is an ongoing pursuit. It is really my journey I’ve been on the past few years…redefining my faith based on new information and knowledge I’ve received…and deciding what to believe as a result. So, not only is it complex and hard to understand, but also a moving target. It truly is a gift worth pursuing, IMO.
HiJolly wrote:I personally take Joseph’s definition of faith — it is a gift of God based on our actions. But how that works is not simple nor easy to understand, much less explain.
I’m sorry but how can it be a gift if it’s based on something. If I have to do something for it, it’s a payment. This is something that seems to pervade JS’s theology. No grace, you get what you earn.Roy wrote:I would like to re-iterate that IMHO belief needs to make sense within one’s mental framework or assumptive reality.
Perhaps I am overly sensitive on this issue and that has led me to become overemphatic. I have always had an internal locus of control or felt that I controlled my own destiny. I viewed the world as operating this way and people generally reaping the good or bad consequences of their decisions.
The catalyst for my worldview collapse was the stillbirth of my daughter. I cannot explain why my worldview crumbled while others in similar situations can find it as faith reaffirming (I understand there are semi-plausible explanations in the Mormon framework why some children are denied/or do not require this earthly probation, but they just didn’t seem to resonate with me.) What I do know is that I did not make a conscious decision to jettison my prior assumptive reality. It was as though my subconscious was reacting to deep needs that I could hardly understand and I was just along for the ride.
Since that time I am viewing the concept of personal choice differently. For every instance where someone “decided” to go to college there are other instances where college simply was not an option, or perhaps was only a very dimly possible one. You might counter, “But surely someone can decide how to believe, can mold their own internal framework.” Yes, you can – but always with limitations. This has been the essence of my personal experience, – who I am is not completely up to me.
BeLikeChrist wrote:I read over your first post. {snip} I reasoned that for me to feel good about being here was that I had to believe that living here was a good thing. [snip] Same principles apply to church. Go because you believe in it or that you benefit. Misery happens when you do something you don’t believe in. Happiness comes from believing in things you do in your life that you feel good about. I hope what I shared with you helps.
I believe this post was directed towards me. I agree with you and for the most part I have been very successful in my life looking at the bright side, seeing the silver lining, describing the glass as half full, and generally deciding to be optimistic. I find that my temperament, past life experiences, mental state, etc. allow me to make that choice. But my recent experiences lead me to question whether that choice is as readily available for others as it has been for me. I therefore experience strong reactions against notions that we simply choose faith, choose hope, choose happiness.
Quote:No grace, you get what you earn.
I would say that we get what we strive to get (or, more precisely, that we become what we strive to become) as a result of grace. Grace is the assumed foundation of Mormonism that makes everything else possible, whereas it is the full possibility in much of Christian theology. We have used “atonement” rather than “grace” for a long time, but the underlying meaning is much the same.
Fwiw, grace is being mentioned FAR more often in General Conference now than it was 10-15 years ago. I think that’s a reaction to the over-emphasis on works that developed in the middle of the Church’s history. Joseph wasn’t anti-grace; actually, he was FAR from anti-grace.
I posted about grace on my own blog and copied it here. I’ll find it and provide the link.
GBSmith wrote:HiJolly wrote:I personally take Joseph’s definition of faith — it is a gift of God based on our actions. But how that works is not simple nor easy to understand, much less explain.
I’m sorry but how can it be a gift if it’s based on something. If I have to do something for it, it’s a payment. This is something that seems to pervade JS’s theology. No grace, you get what you earn.
That’s a materialistic POV, and simply doesn’t work where faith is involved.This kind of faith, you don’t even know what it is until it is given to you. You can’t ask for it, because you can’t conceive of it. You can’t ‘pay’ for it, for it has no tangible price. The “payment” is trust and hope and effort – none of which are externally measurable, none of which are tangible, none of which are objective (the effort is not just physical acts of obedience — it goes much deeper (and much more subjective, ultimately) than that).
Being subjective and to an extent subconscious (or extra-rational) it’s hard to explain.
HiJolly
HiJolly wrote:
That’s a materialistic POV, and simply doesn’t work where faith is involved.I agree but it seems from your comment that that’s exactly what JS is saying. An extension is the “there is a law irrevocably decreed…” and people saying that they did something to “get blessings.” Sorry for the thread jack but from what’s been said JS believed that faith was earned, just like salvation, exaltation, and the blessings we receive. No grace, no free gift. A simple business transaction, you pay you get. You don’t pay, you don’t and if it seems to you that you’re entitled and didn’t get a healing, job, forgiveness, etc. then it’s your fault. And if your marriage fails, your child dies, your kid’s won’t speak to you then you didn’t keep the commandments. Like he says or so JS says he says, “I the lord am bound …”.
Sorry, touched a nerve
GB, that’s a common extrapolation / mutation, but it’s not what Jospeh actually taught. Who was the apostle who spoke recently about blessings ultimately having to be in line with God’s will – that even the prayer and blessing of the faithful isn’t always answered in the way we want? I think that talk had to be given because so many people had developed the mentality you describe over the years.
It’s a really fine line to walk between faith producing desired effects and things happening according to God’s will – one of those two-edged, paradoxical things that simply have to be preached in both ways.
My post about grace in the LDS Church is: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=201&hilit=grace I’m going to bump it up so people can comment on it and keep this post focused on faith.
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