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BTW I really loved the whole discussion of grace. Thank you to Ray and others that participated. The other day one of the Elders was telling me about how great the church’s quit smoking program was. He said, “It is the only program with a 100% success rate for people that really want to quit.” I told him that I was incredulous and explained to him why I don’t think that could be an accurate statistic. He told me that he was just parroting what his DL had told him and he didn’t really have any statistical data.
The part of this that I believe applies to this thread is this:
It is just too easy to say that people who don’t believe didn’t want it badly enough.
GBSmith wrote:At sacrament meeting today one of the speakers made the point that faith was just a matter of deciding to believe. I was struck by that since my loss of faith came from a combination of not feeling a connection with the Spirit and not being able to explain problems with JS, polygamy, the BoM, historical problems, etc.. Do I just decide not to think about them and say they don’t matter? I’d appreciate other’s opinions.
I have had this conversation with people so many times in the past, and most of them don’t agree with me. I’ll just start by saying that. I was introduced to the idea of a Heavenly Father when I was probably about three and starting to go to Primary. I’ve had atheists tell me that means I was indoctrinated to believe in Him. If that’s the case, my parents did a phenomenal job of being very subtle about the process. I honestly feel today that I was born believing in God. I have entertained the idea that there is no God and it doesn’t matter how hard to try to convince myself that maybe He really isn’t there at all, I simply cannot do it. I can’t say I “know” he is with 100% certainty, but I really can say I “know” he is with about 99.999999% certainty. I sometimes even find myself thinking, “I exist, therefore God is.” The concept that I even could exist without Him having created me is beyond the realm of reason for me. So, with respect to my belief in God, it would actually be pretty accurate for me to say that I have no choice in the matter.On the other hand, when it comes to believing in the doctrines of Christianity and Mormonism in particular, I feel differently. I feel like there are certain compelling reasons why I believe, but that it would, at least in theory, be possibly for someone to persuade me not to believe (which is different from the way I view my belief in God). I have come to the conclusion that I believe in those things (i.e. Joseph Smith’s First Vision, etc. and all of the miraculous things concerning the restoration of the gospel) because I want to. I love the doctrines of the Church, from the idea of personally knowing God in a pre-mortal life to the concept that He is not going to turn billions of people into His eternal firewood for having had the misfortune to be born at the wrong time or in the wrong place. It’s because I find these and other doctrines so compelling that I
have tobelieve in the events that brought them back to the Earth. If the doctrines weren’t so uplifting and satisfying, I could very easily not believe that a 14-year-old kid saw God. So, to some extent, I think we do choose to believe what we want to believe and just do so on faith. I hope that all makes sense. Some of you might be interested in something I once posted on my personal blog about my foundational advice to non-members, since it also applied to pretty much everything we discuss here. The part that is relevant to the recent comments (edited slightly for this forum) is: Quote:“If you are serious about trying to reach an understanding of Mormonism, you should be considering everything with an open heart AND mind and praying sincerely to have your own personal prophecy / witness from God. It really isn’t much more complicated than that (even though that confirmation might come in various and sundry ways – not always like the missionaries or members assume). If you sincerely believe God is telling you to accept Mormonism, you have an obligation to act on that; if you sincerely believe God is telling you NOT to accept Mormonism, you have an obligation to act on that, as well. It’s between you and God, and it’s up to you to act according to your own inspiration / prophecy / direction from God. Lacking that type of “confirmation”, do whatever you feel is best for you in your own unique situation – believing God will never punish someone for trying their best to do their best. After all, that also is a core part of the Gospel of pure Mormonism.”
Katzpur wrote:I sometimes even find myself thinking, “I exist, therefore God is.” The concept that I even could exist without Him having created me is beyond the realm of reason for me. So, with respect to my belief in God, it would actually be pretty accurate for me to say that I have no choice in the matter.
I find this is true for me as well. My standard maxim is “I believe I am a child of God like I believe I am real.” Likewise, I believe that an atheist is in the same position, and I don’t begrudge it to him. Perhaps it all boils down to semantics; and perhaps not. In any case, there’s no use fighting about it.
Tom Haws wrote:Katzpur wrote:I can’t say I “know” he is with 100% certainty, but I really can say I “know” he is with about 99.999999% certainty. I sometimes even find myself thinking, “I exist, therefore God is.” The concept that I even could exist without Him having created me is beyond the realm of reason for me. So, with respect to my belief in God, it would actually be pretty accurate for me to say that I have no choice in the matter.
I find this is true for me as well. My standard maxim is “I believe I am a child of God like I believe I am real.” Likewise, I believe that an atheist is in the same position, and I don’t begrudge it to him. Perhaps it all boils down to semantics; and perhaps not. In any case, there’s no use fighting about it.
To me, when it comes to a belief in God, I simply don’t think it’s possible that we can either will ourselves to believe or will ourselves not to believe. It just is what it is. Is that pretty much what you’re saying?Katzpur wrote:Tom Haws wrote:Katzpur wrote:I sometimes even find myself thinking, “I exist, therefore God is.” The concept that I even could exist without Him having created me is beyond the realm of reason for me. So, with respect to my belief in God, it would actually be pretty accurate for me to say that I have no choice in the matter.
I find this is true for me as well. My standard maxim is “I believe I am a child of God like I believe I am real.” Likewise, I believe that an atheist is in the same position, and I don’t begrudge it to him. Perhaps it all boils down to semantics; and perhaps not. In any case, there’s no use fighting about it.
To me, when it comes to a belief in God, I simply don’t think it’s possible that we can either will ourselves to believe or will ourselves not to believe. It just is what it is. Is that pretty much what you’re saying?It sure is.
That implies that we already had our position on God determined at birth. I don’t believe that to be true. At some point an event or series of events influenced us to make an opinion on the matter and that opinion can change as life unfolds. Brown wrote:That implies that we already had our position on God determined at birth. I don’t believe that to be true. At some point an event or series of events influenced us to make an opinion on the matter and that opinion can change as life unfolds.
Yes. It can change. But I don’t think it is at all capricious or subject to a decision. It’s more an inner sense that we discover. At least, that’s my brainstorm for the moment.
I believe God is what is. God is the truth, the reality encompassing and surpassing human reality. God is love. God is the source of life and knowledge. God is the greatest potential in each one of us. God embodies the fulfillment of the greatest that can be. My interpretation of atheism is the rejection of the “personal God” concept. I hear them saying they don’t see a benevolent heavenly figure pulling strings and pushing buttons to control the outcome of events on earth. Personally, I see much less of a gap between the “believers” and “non-believers” than most.
I take heart in the scriptures that tell me God’s thoughts are not my thoughts, His ways not my ways. My ways are shaped, at least in some degree, by this mortal condition that I inhabit. I have to acknowledge that my personal concept of God may have some problems. I may not fully understand the nature and operation of God, but I believe that he IS. Personally, I wish some people could be a little less dogmatic about specific constructs of God – and allow everyone a little more freedom to speak in terms of God.
I can’t help but think that would aid His cause on earth.
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