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Thanks for sharing AP. You touched my heart. OK, I’m getting that many of us see the Holy Ghost as a Comforter. I have come around to that idea as well – the times that I am pretty sure I am feeling the Spirit are times when I am feeling comforted (although that was not the case during SS on Sunday). Perhaps my issues are with other roles the Holy Ghost is said to fill. In SS this week we listed the jobs of the Holy Ghost on the board. I don’t remember them all, but comforter was at the top (it was John 16 and Jesus saying he would send a comforter). There were things like messenger, revelator, reminder of truth, and testifier. Perhaps it is in some of those other roles where I have difficulty. For one, I’m not sure which role the Holy Ghost may have been filling during SS when I felt it, and then there is the old emotion/doubt/confirmation bias thing. Does the Spirit do these other things or do we just think it does? Are there other things not listed that you think the Holy Ghost does? I hope not or we are all spiritually dying. amateurparent wrote:I have never lost my belief or my faith .. But the thought process that God has the best interests of his children formost in his thoughts at all times .. No. That was gone.
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Too many lessons at church were focused on “Live righteously and God will protect you.” Currently, I see that as a cultural lie. We cannot say, “We are here to be tried and tested” and also state that we will be protected through righteous living. Protected from what? From experiencing life?
This is what I think too, AP.I think we often relate feelings of the spirit in hindsight to what we think is important or inspiring or uplifting, and so that is sometimes what people create stories about…that obedience led to the spirit or a miracle and that makes a story to share to justify obedience.
For me, during the most trying times of my life…it did not hold true, however. I was obedient more than ever and did not feel blessed or the spirit. And that was when I had to accept I can choose to look for the spirit and ascribe a story to it with faith or not, but the
experiencesI will go through will be the same regardless of obedience or not. The thing I believe is tied to obedience is natural consequences of actions. One natural consequence of sacrificing to be obedient to a rule in church is a sense of pride and a sense of accomplishment and a sense of unity with others and a sense of humility…and those things can lead to spiritual feelings.
But I can skip church, love my kids, go on a hike in the mountains and watch a great movie with a good message…and although I’m not obedient to church rules of being at my meetings on the sabbath…still have the consequence/reward of the spirit as I do good things on the Sabbath regardless of disobedience to that church rule. I see this with the rest of the world outside of mormonism that are going about doing good things because they are experiencing life regardless of mormon rules.
I guess I try to make sense of it by realizing when I’m obedient to gospel principles and universal moral values…there can be a spirit felt to confirm goodness. Obedience to church rules does not always fit into that. Some church rules seem to be put in place to keep order or to have the church run so mortals can make decisions on leading the church. I understand those rules, but don’t put stock that those lead to the spirit, except when I can feel a willingness to obey arbitrary rules to be a part of a group.
But…if things are at conflict or difficult…I err on the side of obedience to cosmic laws…not church rules. Separating those out has helped ease the pain amateurparent expressed when I had expectations on obedience to things I thought were important…and learned that not all things in the church are important to God.
Amen, Cadence. It can be incredibly liberating to realize that failure can be good enough. It all depends on what one does with that view, but it is in our scriptures and theology.
Depends what you’re being obedient to, or who. I have heard of very unlikely circumstances where people have felt the spirit e.g. under the influence of drugs, but it’s not something I’d encourage.
SamBee wrote:Depends what you’re being obedient to, or who.
I have heard of very unlikely circumstances where people have felt the spirit e.g. under the influence of drugs, but it’s not something I’d encourage.
You do make a point, SamBee. I think it is possible that we can feel the Spirit because we are obeying some commandments but not others. Where such not true most of us would never feel the Spirit because most of us are guilty of breaking or having not repented of breaking at least one commandment at any given moment. I think most orthodox folks might not recognize this as a possibility (probably only because they haven’t thought it through).
You guys are going against everything I was taught on my mission. Which was disobedience = no spirit = sad failure as a missionary. Tim wrote:You guys are going against everything I was taught on my mission. Which was disobedience = no spirit = sad failure as a missionary.
You should read “way below the angels” by Craig hairline. Great (not so orthodox) mission storyYep, Tim, we are – and we aren’t. There is an element of obedience contributing to feeling the spirit and some kind of spiritual guidance – for a whole lot of people, at least, and, in terms of internal peace, perhaps for almost everyone.
I think the issue is more one of spiritual orientation (which is incredibly subjective) and individual conscience and its resultant peace of mind.
I see no correlation whatsoever for other people who seem to be spiritual or non-spiritual by nature, and I also see God blessing and inspiring the wicked and the righteous.
I believe in obedience, as a principle and concept. It’s the application and focus that gets wonky, imo.
The thing that is nerve-wracking about the line of thought about obedience leading to the spirit is the Mormon obsession with working our way into Heaven. Nobody is sufficient, we are all sinners, but we sure do have a self-righteous streak as a culture based on how many boxes we check. hawkgrrrl wrote:we sure do have a self-righteous streak as a culture based on how many boxes we check.
And I used to be kind of proud of that streak. I thought it equaled confidence and surety.
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