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amateurparent wrote:
What do you consider God to be bound to do? …
In my experience, perfect obedience didn’t bring health or protection from illness. It didn’t bring protection from catastrophic financial ruin. It didn’t bring answers to righteous prayers asked in full faith. I have always wondered if I was interpreting the scripture wrongly .. If I was expecting too much.
Many years ago, I was the biggest TBM out there. I followed EVERY rule, every commanent, and lived a very righteous life. I still love a very righteous life, I just lack belief in the truth of the Church.
Good questions. I think He is bound to what he says he is bound to.I used to think that meant that I had earned some blessings by obedience. When my family fell apart, I started to realize it wasn’t what I thought it meant.
So…I’ll skirt the issue for a second…and just say this about the topic…He says He is bound when you do what He says. Something is conditional there.
Secondly…what are his conditions and what is He bound to? Hmmm…I would say it IS NOT blessings that I want, even if I think they are worthy blessings (like keeping a family together). I guess it is blessings that God wants me to have…and I’m not sure what those are…it is His will I am trying to figure out. Like you…I have realized I can relax a bit on the church rules, because experience tells me they don’t equate to protection or blessings. I am learning the value of rules and commandments from a different perspective.
But…God still seems to be saying He is conditional. Not His love. Not blessings I want…but conditions are taught or we would have no covenants.
Would you agree?
Quote:Heber13 wrote:
So…I’ll skirt the issue for a second…and just say this about the topic…He says He is bound when you do what He says. Something is conditional there.
I only see this “conditional” scripture in the D&C. I have some real issues with the D&C. Too many sections — to me — look like JS was trying to bend people to his will using God’s Will as the excuse.
Quote:Secondly…what are his conditions and what is He bound to? Hmmm…I would say it IS NOT blessings that I want, even if I think they are worthy blessings (like keeping a family together). I guess it is blessings that God wants me to have…and I’m not sure what those are…it is His will I am trying to figure out. Like you…I have realized I can relax a bit on the church rules, because experience tells me they don’t equate to protection or blessings. I am learning the value of rules and commandments from a different perspective.
If we take the D&C passage and take it as literal scripture, then what is God bound to provide? I have had it taught for most of my life as protection from harm, accident, illness, death, financial ruin, etc. I have had it taught to me as Prospeity Gospel — that God would prosper those who obeyed Him without question.
Quote:But…God still seems to be saying He is conditional. Not His love. Not blessings I want…but conditions are taught or we would have no covenants.
His love and his blessing are not conditional. So LDS covenants are the only thing I can think of. And there isn’t any list of what he promises in exchange. LDS covenants fall into the same category as the D&C in my life right now.
Quote:Would you agree?
I really cannot see anything conditional on any of the teachings in the New Testament. Even the OT, with all its dietary rules, clothing regulations, and sabbath laws don’t talk about God’s promises being conditional.
So .. I would have to disagree. I choose the follow the NT Christ example at this point on my life .. A much more unconditional approach. If I can be extremely kind, caring, and work hard at doing good in this world, maybe that will make up for all the faith questions I have. I cannot fake faith that isn’t there. But I can make my actions good and positive.
I think this is in the same general category as the faith vs. works argument – which, history has shown, is never-ending. I prefer “and” over “either/or”.
I believe in the unconditional nature of God’s love and his ability to bless beyond our comprehension – but I also have to believe in some degree of responsibility on our part to do our best, at least.
amateurparent wrote:what is God bound to provide? I have had it taught for most of my life as protection from harm, accident, illness, death, financial ruin, etc. I have had it taught to me as Prospeity Gospel — that God would prosper those who obeyed Him without question.
What does he covenant or bind himself to provide to us? Blessings. Just have no idea what kind and what they are. It is hard for me to see connections between things that happen and what I do. While it is hard for me to identify them, it doesn’t mean to me they are not there.
amateurparent wrote:So LDS covenants are the only thing I can think of. And there isn’t any list of what he promises in exchange.
I think there are some. For example, you can read the sacrament prayers, and baptismal covenants, and pull out of the scriptures things that Lord promises. It just takes faith for me to see what those mean to me exactly…for example…”that they may always have his Spirit to be with them”….what does that mean when I go through a divorce and feel alone in this world??? He is saying there is a condition for blessings, but it seems like it is on blessings I can’t identify what they are. I just have to hope they are good. Like vitamins, I am not sure what my health would have been without taking the vitamin…but I think the vitamin did something good (not sure though). But if there was a benefit, that benefit would not have come about without the vitamin because it is conditional.
amateurparent wrote:LDS covenants fall into the same category as the D&C in my life right now.
That is understandable.
Old-Timer wrote:I prefer “and” over “either/or”.
I think Ray is onto something…it is “AND”. I’m figuring that out what that means for my daily life.
Heber13 wrote:Like vitamins, I am not sure what my health would have been without taking the vitamin…but I think the vitamin did something good (not sure though). But if there was a benefit, that benefit would not have come about without the vitamin because it is conditional.
DW and I often talk about the power of perception. Imagine that the vitamin you are taking is a placebo. It can still have a positive effect based on your expectation. Some LDS rules could be placebos (for example I cannot imagine any tangible blessings associated with wearing white shirts or a single pair of earrings.) OTOH there are other rules that can have a very real and quantifiable blessing such as our prohibitions against alcohol, tobacco, and hard drugs. These too get thrown into the pot of determining how many blessings we receive from strict LDS living.
Quote:If we take the D&C passage and take it as literal scripture, then what is God bound to provide? I have had it taught for most of my life as protection from harm, accident, illness, death, financial ruin, etc. I have had it taught to me as Prosperity Gospel — that God would prosper those who obeyed Him without question.
I too internalized this message and it led to a great fall. I now believe that God’s love for me is unconditional but his love is completely separate from intervening on my behalf. I no longer place expectations on what God’s love should bring me. If I am loved by my penniless mother or by the God of the universe – it is still love and love has value.
amateurparent wrote:what is God bound to provide? I have had it taught for most of my life as protection from harm, accident, illness, death, financial ruin, etc. I have had it taught to me as Prospeity Gospel — that God would prosper those who obeyed Him without question.
I was always taught that “I, the lord, am bound when ye do what I say” was a statement of reassurance. In other words, we don’t need to worry about whether god will make good on his promises, we just need to focus on what we are doing. At least that is how the scripture has been taught in classes I’ve attended, it’s always shared devoid of any context.
As a side note, I find it interesting how this verse changes the nature of god. God has a limit, a restriction, a boundary. It’s a subtle change to the mythology. God isn’t capricious… on April 26, 1832 at least.
I think people like to believe in the prosperity gospel. People want to be prosperous and we want there to be a formula we can follow to become prosperous. If we can’t be prosperous in this life justice will be applied and we will find our prosperity in the life to come, etc. In contrast there’s not much comfort in a god that leaves things to chance. Illness, accidents, financial ruin, etc. The implications that these things are essentially “luck of the draw” instill fear so we invent a narrative to convince ourselves that this is a world of order, or perhaps a world with a higher degree of order than what reality presents.
I place a greater weight on “that ye may be the children of your father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” and the lessons in the book of Job than I do on the prosperity gospel.
nibbler wrote:amateurparent wrote:what is God bound to provide? I have had it taught for most of my life as protection from harm, accident, illness, death, financial ruin, etc. I have had it taught to me as Prospeity Gospel — that God would prosper those who obeyed Him without question.
I was always taught that “I, the lord, am bound when ye do what I say” was a statement of reassurance. In other words, we don’t need to worry about whether god will make good on his promises, we just need to focus on what we are doing. At least that is how the scripture has been taught in classes I’ve attended, it’s always shared devoid of any context.
I find that the LDS teachings lend themselves easily to the prosperity gospel. For example there is the following to add context.
Quote:20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
A central message of the BoM seems to be that when the people are righteous God blesses them and they prosper in the land.
The following is from True to the Faith (part of the missionary reference library) and LDS.org:
Quote:The law of tithing requires sacrifice, but your obedience to the law brings blessings that are far greater than anything you ever give up.[snip]
These blessings come to all who pay a full ten percent of their income, even if that amount is very small. As you obey this law, the Lord will bless you both spiritually and temporally.[snip]
If you have not yet established a pattern of consistent tithe paying, you may have difficulty believing that you can afford to give up one-tenth of your income. But faithful tithe payers learn that they cannot afford not to pay tithing. In a very literal and wonderful way, the windows of heaven are opened and blessings are poured out upon them.
There is even the idea that the harder you work on your mission the hotter your eternal companion will eventually be. (That is a canonical teaching right?
đŸ˜ˆ )I just give these few examples to point out that the concepts of the prosperity gospel are not just based on a misinterpretation of a single verse. IMHO they are deeply imbedded in almost every aspect of our church.
It is deeply embedded in nearly all theologies, particularly if the next life is added to the equation. People need to believe they will be blessed for sacrificing to some degree. It isn’t more complex than that, imo.
Roy wrote:Imagine that the vitamin you are taking is a placebo. It can still have a positive effect based on your expectation.
this statement by Roy…Old-Timer wrote:People need to believe they will be blessed for sacrificing to some degree.
and this statement by Ray…
Are kinda how I sum it up.
The placebo seems to work. Because we want it to. It might be hard to believe in the positive effect without a placebo to help focus belief on.
God’s love is likely unconditional. Maybe we like to believe the blessings are conditional so it makes sense to us.
I’ve never tried it…but I wonder if I went against a specific commandment and waited to see if blessings abound. The problem is I can’t really recreate a condition and outcome. Each moment is unique. I can’t fix my variables in my life. So…I just see an outcome…and choose what I believe in.
Sam MB wrote an amazing post on By Common Consent back in 2009 called, “I the Lord am Bound”. The link is:
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