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I am in a situation where something bad has happened. I have choices when praying. One is to accept the situation — focus prayer on achieving personal healing, and joy in my life in the absence of a fulfilling relationship with my daughter. Or I can move forward in hope the situation will change in the future. A large part of me thinks the latter, which involves hope, is overrated. Wanting something that may well never come is painful. It is frustrating in my view. Accepting life’s circumstances without hope, and focusing on being happy in spite of the unpleasant circumstance seems better than hope that is unlikely to be fulfilled. Fixing your “wanter” is a very Buddhist principle, where most suffering, it is presumed, comes from wanting things. And in this case, it seems like wanting something from someone who is dead set against giving it seems like a recipe for misery.
What do you think — is Hope overrated?Are we better off NOT hoping, particularly when the thing we are hoping for has a low probability of success (like someone who has a completely severed spine and is paralyzed from the waist down), and focus on coping and joy in spite of the unpleasant event, or should be continue in Hope and prayer even if it seems like a positive outcome is unlikely? SilentDawning wrote:
I am in a situation where something bad has happened. I have choices when praying. One is to accept the situation — focus prayer on achieving personal healing, and joy in my life in the absence of a fulfilling relationship with my daughter. Or I can move forward in hope the situation will change in the future.
1. That’s really tough about your daughter. I’m sorry:(
2. Why is it a binary situation (“One…Or…”
Can you focus on figuring out what personal healing looks like for you, find joy in your life independent of your daughter, and accept that situations with family members are dynamic and have a lot of moving parts?
a) The older I get, the more that things I thought were “fine” or “settled” get reprocessed by me to uncover meaning and forgiveness.
b) Sometimes people bring joy to my life because they are people and they are in my life. But my life can have joy in it without people too.
SilentDawning wrote:
A large part of me thinks the latter, which involves hope, is overrated. Wanting something that may well never come is painful. It is frustrating in my view. Accepting life’s circumstances without hope, and focusing on being happy in spite of the unpleasant circumstance seems better than hope that is unlikely to be fulfilled. Fixing your “wanter” is a very Buddhist principle, where most suffering, it is presumed, comes from wanting things. And in this case, it seems like wanting something from someone who is dead set against giving it seems like a recipe for misery.
It sounds to me like you are torn between “Hoping to set up a Joyful Life Respecting Your Daughter’s Disconnect” and “Hoping Your Daughter Reconnects”? If so, the question isn’t necessarily, “Is Hope Over-rated?” but more like, “What is the best path available to me to invest my Hope in?”.
SilentDawning wrote:
What do you think — is Hope overrated?Are we better off NOT hoping, particularly when the thing we are hoping for has a low probability of success (like someone who has a completely severed spine and is paralyzed from the waist down), and focus on coping and joy in spite of the unpleasant event, or should be continue in Hope and prayer even if it seems like a positive outcome is unlikely?
A) I would probably re-process why your daughter is setting boundaries now around associating with you –
is it a “You Thing” – something where you let her down/didn’t meet her where she was (etc. – whatever that looks like), or is it more a “Her Thing” – a case of associating with you is a catalyst for stuff she doesn’t want to deal with? B1) If it is a “You Thing”, then whatever steps for restitution and relationship repair is what I would focus on doing.
B2) If it is a “Her Thing”, then whatever steps you need to take (probably letter or email) to let her know (in her terminology if possible) that you are happy to reconnect and that you love her. [No strings attached, just 1 and done].
But then, I think that religion has co-opted “Hope” from being more of a case of “Optimism” into being something big like “Faith” and “Charity”.
I have given it a lot of thought – I don’t have Faith in God right now AND I am really optimistic and/or moderately full of hope that God exists.
Thanks Amy…I actually thought I had scrubbed the Opening post of references to the trigger for this thread. I was hoping to keep it focused on hope in general. As far as the relationship with my daughter goes I have been reading a lot about estrangement and feel her decision is not so much a reflection on me as it is on societal trends, her mental health, the likely input of her therapist, her rather unemotional and distant (at least to me) husband, her studies in social work and counseling, and her personal temperament. As a teenager she was always ticked off about something I did, and in my family, I was always the least favorite parent with the rest of the family ganging up on me about my position of issues fairly regularly. But back to hope. I am leaning toward living without hope of reconciliation. I think perhaps you are right that it’s less about striking hope from prayers, but redirecting it to new pastures. For example, praying with hope of joy and fulfilment in life in spite of certain obstacles that are unlikely to change. So, there is still hope, but it’s directed to other areas that seem to have more potential. So, hope continues to exist, just not toward things that are unlikely to change. .
I think hope has a couple different meanings here. There is a generalized sort of hope for good things here and now or in the near future. A sort of “earthly” hope. Examples of this might be “I hope the weather is good and I don’t miss my flight connections” or “I hope my neighbor will be OK on his own since his wife died.” I don’t think this hope is futile, although we don’t always get what we hope for (sometimes we miss the connection even though the weather is good, or the neighbor might not be able to live on his own). Life is unfair. I think there’s also a “gospel” hope (or “eternal” hope). When I talk about this kind of hope I reference Jesus and what he taught his contemporary Jews. The average Jew of his day could have felt very hopeless because they could not live each and every one of the hundreds of commandments to their fullest, and the Pharisees (and others) were always there to remind them how sinful (and hopeless) they were. The message Jesus had was different, even if you don’t believe he was the Son of God, the Messiah, or the Savior. His was a message of hope. I hope Jesus was right and that God really is as loving, full of grace, and merciful as I believe they are. I don’t think this hope is overrated, but I do think it’s often underplayed (in this church at least).
You may have “scrubbed the post” – and I read patterns of human behavior all the time (and potentially read into it). 
One thing I think humans do is “If if I am just ENOUGH of something – righteous enough, generous enough, personable enough – then people I love will always want to be with me and interact with me”.
I don’t trust “the prosperity gospel” of church administration. I don’t trust the “prosperity gospel” of peopling. You will always be “more than enough” for some people, “enough” for other people, and “never enough” for other people. At the end of the day, you are the one who has to live in your skin and be your own best friend – not the other people.
I still recommend the “dropping a line – Thinking of You” periodically in your relationship with her. Hallmark may have good options for you:)
NOTE: I pulled back from my father during my faith transition because I figured I was absolutely going to disappoint him and I didn’t want to deal with that (among other things). The best thing he did was periodically drop a line via text to me directly and to my mom indirectly letting me know that he was there to talk if I wanted/needed to. Meanwhile, he lived his life and did his own thing just fine.
AmyJ wrote:
NOTE: I pulled back from my father during my faith transition because I figured I was absolutely going to disappoint him and I didn’t want to deal with that (among other things).The best thing he did was periodically drop a line via text to me directly and to my mom indirectly letting me know that he was there to talk if I wanted/needed to. Meanwhile, he lived his life and did his own thing just fine.
That implies hope of a reconciliation…and I don’t think I have the patience to wait for that train to leave the station. My family life has been an exercise in suffering, lack of fulfilment, lack of respect and admiration from my wife and children for decades, and its been hard on me. All while I provided VERY WELL for them, gave emotional support as best I could, tried to be a good father and husband, albeit with shortcomings, and tried to have HOPE for a better future. I am not prepared to expend emotional effort on hope of a reconciliation as a result.
I am leaning toward no contact in return for her estrangement, but I might, without hope, send the messages you suggest via snail mail, since she has blocked me from all digital forms of communication. I would do so with a different objective. As a way of forgiving her and healing my heart, but without expectation of a reconciliation. as much as I would welcome it. I think I would also respect myself to do that, as it’s being a bigger person. Hope again, goes into doing what your father did “living his life and doing his own thing just fine” and not into getting fulfilment out of the father/daughter relationship.
I will say, she has been an emotional handful through the years. Intelligent, thoughtful, mature in many ways, possessing empathy, but always pissed off about something I said or did. Most conversations would be her shooting darts at me for something I said, correcting me, or shooting back something in aggressive counterpoint to what I said.
For example, she is studying to be a therapist. I made the comment that the therapists I have been to over the years have varied widely in their effectiveness. She shoots back “so do university professors”. (I am a university professor) in a kind of aggressive tone of voice.
As a teenager she was very harsh to me if I ever went into her room to try to talk to her (something I appreciated and longed for in my own parents). My family is very critical of me and as I may have said before, they would always gang up on me whenever I would try to impose even the gentlest of structure or discipline in the family (like limiting computer gaming time from 24/7 to a couple hours a day, for example).
I have learned that parenting is like service — you do it without expecting anything in return. The kids don’t appreciate the economic prosperity, the stability of a nuclear family, the fact that they had their own room growing up, the fact that a car was provided for them as a teenager so they had freedom to pursue events with friends and have an active social life. They don’t appreciate the prayers and attempts to be good parents we pursued. I have noticed that adults will often point, with regret to the fact their family had little prosperity growing up, but I rarely hear adults comment on the economic security their parents provided when they had it. It’s like air — taken for granted when its present, mourned when its absent.
For a long time my wife held out “hope” that I would come out the other side of my faith crisis with a strong testimony. I felt that hope to be invalidating because it sent the message that I wasn’t good enough as I was. I will always remember the moment when DW told me that she understands how I got to where I am and does not think it likely that I would revert to a more traditionally believing member. Since, I had become highly dubious of claims of the miraculous – it would probably take a literal miracle in order to divert me from my present course.
That moment was huge to me. It felt like my wife had finally let go of the husband that I wasn’t.
Hope can mean many things in different contexts. In this particular context it was better to let it go.
Roy wrote:
Hope can mean many things in different contexts. In this particular context it was better to let it go.
Amen Roy. It’s one reason that when I DO pray with hope for things, I put a time limit on it now. It’s not a time limit for God, it’s a time limit for me. Maintaining hope is emotionally draining for me when I pray fervently and there is no change in the circumstances. I tell God that I can commit to X months to pray for the thing for which I’m asking. If the thing doesn’t occur, then I will move on to trying to find joy in spite of the thing I need/want, not being present. It puts control back in my hands, and for many problems, leads to a satisfactory solution even if the thing for which I am praying never happens. Learning to have peace in the face of unrelenting adversity is to me, an important skill and a gateway to happiness, even more so than invoking miracles that change your life circumstances.
There is a book called The How of Happiness that referred to “The 40% solution”. They said that 50% of our happiness is due to our genetics, 10% due to our circumstances, and 40% is up to us and our cognitive processes. I believe that learning to be happy within that 40% is critical, as life often throws us curves and circumstances we can NEVER change. I have seen that.
After the time limit on hope has expired, I sometimes end up simply giving thanks and praying for others alone, or asking for some other thing. I normally have only 1 thing at a time that I pray for too. At times I have absolutely nothing I pray for (for myself), giving thanks and petitioning for others only. That can be a liberating feeling.
I had pretty good success with this, with most prayers answered within the time frame I allowed for myself. Except the last one, which you know about…I am already praying that I will have peace in spite of my circumstances. And making good progress.
Quote:Can you focus on figuring out what personal healing looks like for you, find joy in your life independent of your daughter, and accept that situations with family members are dynamic and have a lot of moving parts?
Definitely. I have found that accepting circumstances is easier and can product peace as well as getting what you want out of life. Life seems to dole out generous amounts of hardship and things you can’t change. Changing yourself is best.
Quote:It sounds to me like you are torn between “Hoping to set up a Joyful Life Respecting Your Daughter’s Disconnect” and “Hoping Your Daughter Reconnects”? If so, the question isn’t necessarily, “Is Hope Over-rated?” but more like, “What is the best path available to me to invest my Hope in?”.
Definitely! That is the question, and I have settled on the latter.
Quote:
A) I would probably re-process why your daughter is setting boundaries now around associating with you –is it a “You Thing” – something where you let her down/didn’t meet her where she was (etc. – whatever that looks like), or is it more a “Her Thing” – a case of associating with you is a catalyst for stuff she doesn’t want to deal with? I have settled on it being partly me — or at least, how she interprets my actions. She is very sensitive. For example, when I was in the hospital after a heart attack, she flew up to see me. I was THRILLED. But I hear she was upset that while she was there, I took a phone call from my boss rather than putting all my focus on her. It was a 10-15 minute conversation – certainly I meant nothing by it. But she interprets these things really hard, personalizing them when she shouldn’t. After processing for the last few days, I believe there are other non-SD reasons for her behavior. I can’t exuse myself entirely, but I think there are reasons born out of her own personality that have contributed to this.
It depends on the focus of the hope. I prefer hope above nearly all else – unless it is completely unrealistic (and, for some people, even then). It can be dangerous in some situations, but, generally, I love the concept, since it is the core of grace, imo.
Hope is the precursor to faith — I don’t understand how its the core of grace — perhaps you can explain that @Old_Timer. But I understand that hope is the foundation of faith. No hope, no faith. I get, from this thread, that you have to be circumspect about where you put your hope. I have decided after years and years of prayers unanswered, or at least, answered “no”, that I don’t have the energy to invest hope in things that are hard to change.
But the hope that I will be happy in spite of those things seems realistic. It puts the onus on my thought processes, and how I manage my cognitions. I have found that asking others to pray for me seems to help. There are days when I feel above life’s vicissitudes and I attribute this to the prayers of others.
Another thing I have been doing lately is to ask other people for specific things they would like me to pray for. I asked 3 people, one of whom is someone I would consider to be VERY self-sufficient temporally and spiritually, and even he wrote back with something specific I could pray for in his case. I think getting the focus off yourself can help.
Believing in grace requires a hope that we won’t be held to any unrealistic, or even generalized, standard – that we will be treated lovingly and individually. The concept of grace requires faith, founded on that hope. SilentDawning wrote:What do you think — is Hope overrated?Are we better off NOT hoping, particularly when the thing we are hoping for has a low probability of success (like someone who has a completely severed spine and is paralyzed from the waist down), and focus on coping and joy in spite of the unpleasant event, or should be continue in Hope and prayer even if it seems like a positive outcome is unlikely?
Some thoughts that I can only give according to my experiences. I am of a mind that hope is the initial experience of faith. That hope of things between birth and death is doomed because everything connected to life (which is in essence everything we know of empirically) eventually ends through death. Science overwhelmingly concludes that eventually even the universe ends in a kind of death of everything. Scripture tells us that if we have hope of Christ in this life only, we are of all men most miserable. I am convinced that hope of anything in this life only; will eventually result in misery.
If we have hope in anything beyond the grave – such hope seem to me to be meaningless unless our hope beyond the grave includes both forgiveness and mercy – first for ourselves and then for others as well. Hope in Christ is the only hope that makes sense to me. The reason is, that it is the only hope I can reconcile that is directly connected to forgiveness and mercy without neglecting justice. With all this in mind I see good reason that I should hope for everything you have posted turns out best for you, that you will continue to hope that all will work out – and so you should act as though it will – regardless of whatever you sacrifice or change in the process.
I am convinced that the best outcome for you will only have possibility through your personal hope. That of all things that you can do, only a hope for better will provide the motivation necessary to continue with an attitude most likely for success. Hope is never overrated – if anything (I believe) it is underrated.
I think faith might be a greater degree of hope. When for something that doesn’t happen I’m less disappointed than if I had faith it would happen and it didn’t. Many people come here in faith crisis, but I don’t think I’ve encountered anyone in a hope crisis (although loss of all hope is a serious situation).
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