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Tom Haws wrote:
I think the unanimous voice here is that it is important to be open in an appropriate and supportive way.
Well said, Tom.
The thing I have had to learn also is patiently being open…and be reasonable about it. I feel it has taken me a year to study and get to a point where I am today in my feelings and reconciling them to things I was taught my whole life. It has taken me time and a lot of meditation and pondering.
I cannot explain that to my father-in-law in a 15 min discussion and have him see deeply what I have come to believe. I’ve tried a couple times, hasn’t gone so well, and so I have told myself to be patient and keep trying…eventually I think it can be better understood as reasonable interpretations, instead of Anti-mormon ideas or faithless arguments.
So I don’t need to feel dishonest or that I must hide my feelings…but being open also requires some discretion on what I can explain properly and what is too hard to convey in words.
Thanks for all your thoughts and experiences. I start crying every time I even think about “outing” myself-just reading this thread makes my eyes well up. But, I feel like I’ve hit a wall and something has to change. I just don’t know exactly what or how. I’m trying to get out of my head more and just live. I am hoping that will help me know what my bliss is. Right now I just feel off…uncomfortable? I dunno. Maybe it’s stress. Something is missing from my life.
Regardless, you guys are great!
Just Me, I just reread this thread. This is when I wish I could talk to someone like you face to face. I feel what you are going through because it is just where I am at. I too am trying to decide who to tell. I decided not to tell my youngest daughter until she is out of high school. But I feel very fake with my friends. I think going slow is the right choice. I’m hoping I will know when the time is right. I just realized it has been a year since this all started. Crazy! Good luck.
Peaceandjoy wrote:Just Me,
I just reread this thread. This is when I wish I could talk to someone like you face to face. I feel what you are going through because it is just where I am at. I too am trying to decide who to tell. I decided not to tell my youngest daughter until she is out of high school. But I feel very fake with my friends. I think going slow is the right choice. I’m hoping I will know when the time is right. I just realized it has been a year since this all started. Crazy! Good luck.
Thanks. It’s been a year for me, too. A little more, I think. I think I crave face to face conversation about spirituality. I was actually looking for meet-up groups in my area last night. If I find one that seems like a good match I think I will give it a try.
Old-Timer wrote:This is going to be one of those “direct” comments:
I’m as “out” as it is possible to get when it comes to my beliefs – but I’m firmly “in” the Church.I don’t hesitate to share my opinions, as anyone in the entire Bloggernacle knows 😆 – but eveyone knows I’m fully committed to the Church. I don’t lie; I don’t hide my beliefs; I don’t mince words; I don’t let stupid things go unchallenged; I constantly express my view in public and privately with individuals. Some people are “out” – while I am “way out there”. I also am “in”.It doesn’t have to be one or the other – “in” or “out”.That’s part of the black and white wolrdview that causes so much of the dissonance experienced by those entering Stage 4. Let me try to put it this way:
Why could Elder Wirthlin serve in the same quorum as Elder McConkie and Elder Packer? Why can Elder Packer serve in the same quorum as Elder Andersen and Elder Cook? Do you really think that they pull punches with each other about their beliefs on topics they discuss? Believe me, it doesn’t happen that way. They hash it all out openly and honestly – and generally don’t move forward until there is a consensus.
What’s the difference in a ward? Primarily, people who are less willing to grant that others can disagree and still be fine, faithful, dedicated members of the Church. When Elder Wirthlin begged that we allow ALL instruments in the orchestra to be heard, he was saying that it’s OK to be different in the way one thinks and sees lots of things (and even “sounds” to others) – to be “out” of the normal range, if you will. The key is being “in” the orchestra – actively playing your own instrument – not sitting on the sidelines worried about sounding different.
This simply isn’t about how others view you; it’s about how you view yourself. Nothing is going to change until recognition of that occurs.
K. This is really meaningful to me. Especially the last bit. I feel like I’m 50% there. I am sure about my beliefs. I have gone through the wreckage and salvaged and reestablished the stuff that feels true and means most to me. And I am open for God to help me understand more. But its orienting to others that causes me trouble. Being “out” and “in” seems problematic because its hard for people to include people who feel or look or act differently than they do. You suddenly become a threat when you never meant to be. And it hurts when someone rejects you based upon your inability to do “it” like they do. I too feel the need to challenge stupdity or to break the mormon bubble as I am sure its not made by God. But at the same time, I just wanna peacefully grow at my pace and let others grow at theirs. I can’t see it all or understand it all today. Not even when I desperately want to. It would be nice to be in and out without feeling like a scarlet A is on your forehead. Be nice if I could just be Poppy and be appreciated for where I am today.
What is a meet-up group and how do you get ahold of them?? Poppyseed wrote:
K. This is really meaningful to me. Especially the last bit. I feel like I’m 50% there. I am sure about my beliefs. I have gone through the wreckage and salvaged and reestablished the stuff that feels true and means most to me. And I am open for God to help me understand more. But its orienting to others that causes me trouble. Being “out” and “in” seems problematic because its hard for people to include people who feel or look or act differently than they do. You suddenly become a threat when you never meant to be. And it hurts when someone rejects you based upon your inability to do “it” like they do. I too feel the need to challenge stupdity or to break the mormon bubble as I am sure its not made by God. But at the same time, I just wanna peacefully grow at my pace and let others grow at theirs. I can’t see it all or understand it all today. Not even when I desperately want to. It would be nice to be in and out without feeling like a scarlet A is on your forehead. Be nice if I could just be Poppy and be appreciated for where I am today.YES! That is how I feel. Right down to the scarlet A (for apostate)!
😆 Gosh, where do you live? Anywhere near Colorado???Peaceandjoy wrote:What is a meet-up group and how do you get ahold of them??
Well, I just used a search engine and it took me to meetup.com where I just looked up keywords I was interested in. They have groups that get together to meditate or talk about philosophy, spirituality, etc, etc. You do have to become a member to actually join a group, though. Right now I’m just reading about the ones that may interest me. It just seems like a meet-up group would fill my needs better than going to other churches (in addition to our 3 hour block).
The LDS church is my home, but I do need to fill this need in me for talking about my beliefs.
Hey I’m in Colorado 
LaLaLove wrote:Hey I’m in Colorado
Sweet! I’m totally gonna PM ya!
I have never “outed” myself; I’ve just been who I am. As I said, my ideas and beliefs are “out there” for many people – but they aren’t seen as “out of line” because I’m not seen as “out of line”. Everything I say at church has a purpose of uplifting and improving and sharing – and everything I say in church is said softly and gently and calmly. It’s hard to get mad or stay mad at someone who simply refuses to get upset, who smiles at and says hi to and hugs everyone. It’s hard to classify someone as an apostate who references GA’s and scriptures when he makes comments – or who phrases things in terms of “I know quite a few very faithful member who really struggle with this topic and I’ve come to learn that all of us see things slightly differently.”
It really is important to understand that the very phrase “coming out” or “outing” carries connotations of confrontation and oppostition. I understand totally why it came into use and its importance for many, but I really prefer simply “being myself”. I am who I am – not who I am not.
I like Ray’s attitude and ideas of being “out there”. I also try to remember not to look at all this stuff so categorical, which really limits our abilty to enjoy the journey, in my opinion. I do understand that it can be really difficult not to fall back into that categorical viewpoint, however, particularly when it’s time to renew a temple recommend because some of the answers require pretty categorical responses. I guess, in that case, maybe one could just choose not to renew and still hold to the part of the church they wanted to experience. I’ve also often wondered about how many LDS people out there feel and think some of the same things I do. I am “out there” enough to see I’m not alone in some of my “out there-ness” but I there is still a good deal I keep close to the vest. More than once I’ve thought about that Emperor’s New Clothes story and wondered if maybe a few of us just started saying something, more would admit that they too wondered why the guy was naked. I wish I could climb into the brains of church leaders and see what doubts and dissonance might be bouncing around their gray matter.
I like being reminded of Wirthlin’s orchestral example. Does Ray really play the sax? I do too, so maybe that’s why I tend to agree with a lot of his ideas. But, I’ve commented for years that if there are no guitars in the Celestial Kingdom, I’d probably be more comfortable somewhere else. Of course, there ARE no guitars in an orchestra typically, which is yet another subtle way to disparage and discriminate against that wonderful instrument (this is my not so subtle way of complaining about church leaders who have a thing against guitars in sacrament mtg, ha!). I have never in my life heard of a STEEL guitar being used in Sacrament meeting, but I think that’s just about the coolest thing ever. I’d cross ward boundaries to attend that ward. I hope my father-in-law is getting to play the steel guitar in heaven… in some really cool bar with no smoke.
Ray, do your family members know your beliefs? I don’t feel the need to spill my guts to people at church. It’s really a matter of talking openly about my beliefs to the people I live with.
This is a great discussion, thanks for expanding on the previous thread! I feel strongly that being “out” I important…that being authentic is vital to mental and spiritual health. That said, someone in the initial throes of stage 4 may not even know who they are or what authentic is! Many of us who based our whole lives on the church and our place in it have a huge part of our identity ripped away, thus the confusion, depression, etc… Reconstructing or rediscovering my identity (my real identity!) has taken time, study, prayer, conversations with those I trust, therapy, support from this forum. My identity is a growing, morphing creation that I now love and see as a gift. But there was a time when my constructed world fell to pieces.
Bottom line is…in the initial stages of doubt, confusion and identity crisis…go SLOW. Being out in that space can be very unsafe for yourself, loved ones and even your journey. Feel your way gently through this time. Feel carefully for those you can trust. Approach each new situation (TR expiring, telling a spouse or friend) gently and with caution. Again, great thread. Posting from my phone here so excuse any errors!
just me, I have a personal blog which includes daily posts and links. It’s called “Things of My Soul”. My family and in-laws know about it. I don’t try to advertise it aggressively, but it gets a few dozen hits daily from around the world. It’s about orthodox AND heterodox views – pretty much everything about which I’ve ever commented in my time in the Bloggernacle – and that’s much more extensive than those who have not been participating in the Bloggernacle over the past three years realize. My former Stake Persident and Bishop know about it, and there is at least one member of my current ward (I assume, based on the location of the hits) who reads it – although I’m not sure if they know they are reading mine. (It’s never come up in a conversation.) I have mentioned in a sacrament meeting talk as a High Councilor my work on the internet with members who are struggling, and I’ve given referrals to this site to people who came up to me after that talk and mentioned someone who needed a forum like this. (I hope someone who lurks and reads came here because of that talk.) It’s hard to hide one’s beliefs and be the most prolific commenter in the entire Bloggernacle in 2008.😳 Not everyone knows all of my beliefs about every issue or question possible. I don’t go out of my way to be contrary in all conversations – especially because I don’t have to do that. As I said in a different thread, basic psychology dictates that I make at least 5-8 positive comments to every negative one if I am to be seen as a friend and not an enemy.
Luckily, there is SO much about which I can do so without any compromise whatsoever that it simply isn’t a problem for me.I tend to keep my most “out there” opinions to myself, since there rarely is a need to share them. I am TOTALLY comfortable with who I am and what I believe – but that’s largely because I accept the FACT that I might be wrong (probably am) on quite a few things and surely will see many things differently down the road at some point. Given that perspective, I’m not dogmatic about much – so I’m not really a threat to almost anyone else. Someone might think, “That’s kind of strange” – or even, “That’s really stupid” – but they rarely think, “He’s trying to convert me to his view,” and they never think, “He thinks I’m stupid and is attacking me.”
Finally, “inbeing” nailed something I believe strongly – and it is part of the resolution posts on charity I have shared lately. We simply must avoid spreading our own suffering unnecessarily onto others. We must have help in working through our struggles, but we can’t gain that by dumping on those who just can’t understand. If sharing a particular belief with someone is going to do nothing but make me feel better temporarily while making others miserable, why would I do it? Why should I do it? Frankly, it’s selfish. “Authenticity” can be good, but it also can be destructive and mean; “honesty” can include selective silence, but it also can be cruel and spiteful.
I don’t need to share everything with everyone in order to be authentic, honest, open or any other good characteristic. In nearly all cases of which I can think, sharing everything with someone just to feel like everyone MUST understand the whole me is a manifestation that I haven’t accepted myself completely yet –
and how can I expect others who don’t understand me to accept someone I can’t accept yet?inbeing’s advice is spot on – and we say it constantly here:
GO SLOWLY. Find yourself before you worry about sharing yourself with those who currently don’t understand. Sharing is not dumping. Sharing implies collaboration with someone who understands at least enough to help carry a burden – who can comfort those who stand in need to comfort. Dumping is nothing more than a temporary transferal of suffering, and the recipient almost inevitably will resent it – just as you do when it’s done to you.
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