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1. I really appreciate having having all of you here. Each one adds something nice to the makeup of the community. 2. Are we now freely using the acronym TBM instead of the gentler “traditional believer”?
Tom, I think it’s just too deeply ingrained – but if I ever use it, I mean “traditional believing Mormon”. Is it possible to re-convert? Butters wrote:Do you really think that would/could happen?
Yes, I do.
I was born in the church, baptized at 8 and felt the Holy Ghost at my baptism and was converted in a cute little child-like way. At 18, in the dorms of BYU, I was re-converted. At 20, on my mission, I was re-converted again. At 29, serving in a bishopric, I was re-converted again. At 40 (last year), I was re-converted again, in a very different way.
I actually think it is meant to be this way. We learn, we grow, we re-adjust our commitments on new learnings. Some re-commit stronger to the church, others re-commit stronger to love or other things outside the church…but we keep going at it.
If you haven’t read Wendy Ulrich’s talk to open a conferene…I highly recommend it.
(Link:
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Faith_Cognitive_Dissonance_and_the_Psychology_of_Religious_Experience.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Faith_Cognitive_Dissonance_and_the_Psychology_of_Religious_Experience.html She mentions stages.
Stage 1. Honeymoon and idealism.
Stage 2. Power struggles of what we want vs. others
Stage 3. Withdrawal.
Quote:The fourth and final stage of committed relationships is about renewal. Not exactly a renewal of the honeymoon, but a more mature, realistic, and truly loving renewal. We come to accept our spouse or our parents or the Church, and we come to accept ourselves. We allow God to run the universe, and we become more content to let go of things we cannot change. A deeper, more mature love begins to emerge, with fewer power struggles and less disengagement. We do not need to see all the answers, and we do not need perfection by our standards in order to not be embarrassed or ashamed of our Church, our partner, or our God. We reinvest in the relationship, not because we have decided to risk yet one more time that we will not get hurt only to have the rug pulled out yet one more time from under us,
but because we have learned that hurt can be survived, that this is a risk worth taking, and that it does not mean we cannot be happy or that we are irrational suckers or that we are doomed to failure because we take another chance on trust or because we fail or are failed again.We see ourselves and our partner more realistically, and we do not run from either vision. We recognize that we can be hurt by being betrayed or we can be hurt by not trusting, but we don’t get the no-hurt choice because there isn’t oneI think your approach with that young woman was a wise approach. We can if we want to. And getting to
wanting todoesn’t mean lying or tricking your brain to do so…it is exactly the opposite…being even more honest with yourself and others than you’ve ever been. And then things are different…not going back to the same way it used to be…but progression to something better. That is my faith, and what allows me to skip church today because I want to, yet honestly tell my kids I’m a believing mormon. cwald wrote:Butters wrote:
I believe that I am at a better spot than I was a year ago. I have a peace that I didn’t have when I was TBM. This IS better.Yes, and that is a VERY difficult concept for TBM’s to grasp. Especially loving TBM family members. You and I are okay. We are not broken. We’re just different.
I really liked what Enoch said and how he said it, so I was going to respond, but then saw Butters said exactly what I wanted to say!Then I saw cwald add to it further (you all are awesome! …
I did it once. I was very less active, non-TR, non-temple-recommend-holding, extremley hurt and negative toward the Church, testimony shattered. I stayed away for 7 years without a calling. But kept going to priesthood meeting, sunday school and sacrament about 30% of the time. I didn’t ready anything negative about the Church at that time — the experiences I had were enough to make me feel total distance from it. The lessons, kindness of people, a bishop who just left me along for and met with me for 15 minutes for most of that time all helped.
Then I moved to a new Ward where no one knew me, adn they were all practicing LDS in a major way. The Ward was on steroids when it came to programs. This ignited something in me as I started believing in the organization again — and felt proud of it again.
I had this strong return to spirituality, and ended up in the Bishopric out of the blue in this high performing Ward. And I WANTED to do it. I didn’t have any contrarion ideas even though my past experiences had shattered my testimony years previously.
So, it’s possible. I think you need to starve those things that bring you angst and really focus on those things that are uplifting if your mind and will let you. Being around the right people help. These people had no interest in the past garbage we experienced in the Church — they focused on DOING the work of the Church and supporting each other, and it totally energized me!!
[of course, 7 years later I hit another wall, but that is another story]
It’s really really hard to do that. If you know of a way, I’d like to know. I found out all the nonsense about the history of the church about 12 years ago, but am still active NOM. I sometimes feel the ‘spirit’ telling me it’s true, however, then I think about the facts and the feelings not matching up to each other, and the Spirit soon leaves. My shelf fell some time ago, but I stay for my DW and even actively serve in callings. I figure it’s no better or worse than any other thing. I consider myself an ‘agnostic christian’ I like Christ teachings, but as far as the Resurrection,etc., it’s probably too good to be true. Cadence wrote:My heart at times wants to go back but my brain will not let me. I have been unable to put aside all logic and reason and just believe. I find no way around it. I have been unable to reconcile the empirical evidence against belief with the anecdotal evidence for belief in the church. Do I just choose to believe regardless of the evidence that tells me it is most likely made up. If someone can go back after learning as much as I have and believe it again in totality I guess that would be somewhat of a miracle. I wish I had a miracle.
Cadence, your first sentence says it all for me and cwald I’m with you, “No,” not the way I was before. I’m all about truth. I started letting my 13 year old in on some of the many secrets not mentioned in primary lessons. He took it very well. I won’t let them fall like I have. Its to risky to let them just learn the truth the way I did. I will choose better bricks this time as I rebuild my wall of faith! My bricks, not the ones handed to me by those who think they know whats best for me to know.
fatherof4husbandof1
F4H1 wrote:“No,” not the way I was before.
I also agree with you and Cadence and cwald on this, that you can’t go back to the conversion the way it was before…and I’m glad for that. It is a progression to move forward…but i think you can be converted in a new way and be a completely true believing Mormon with your eyes opened to the things we’ve learned. Bushman is an example of this, and like Ulrich stated in her discourse, if you choose to go back and make the commitment to re-engage, not in a foolish way where you will have the rug pulled out from under you again, but because there is not an option for “no pain”…just that you are willing to live with some pain in the relationship in a mature way.
Lizarian wrote:I sometimes feel the ‘spirit’ telling me it’s true, however, then I think about the facts and the feelings not matching up to each other, and the Spirit soon leaves. My shelf fell some time ago, but I stay for my DW and even actively serve in callings. I figure it’s no better or worse.
I have felt this way also. Usually the spirit is testifying to me when I see or hear about someone’s loving service or about Christ, not about church stuff (church administration, interpretations of things like WoW, or other church matters). But it is an interesting thing to think about…being at church still provides me with times I do feel the spirit. So it can’t be a complete waste of time…being at church does feed my spirit, just in a different way than before my crisis. This is why a buffet style serves me best…I stay and choose the good I can find, and pass on the rest.
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