Is it worth it raising daughters in the church?

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Yes, I told DD that the holy ghost was the divine spark within her that will guide her into who she is to become. Her parents know only in part, her teachers know only in part, she herself may know only in part but the HG knows God’s unique plans for her and he will prompt her in key moments. I feel that this interpretation is doctrinally sound. More importantly, I want DD to learn to trust her internal compass.

I love that!

Roy wrote:

Hawkgrrrl has written something to the effect that even though the church hierarchy remains highly closed to women, the majority of LDS marriages seem to be remarkably cooperative, respectful, and egalitarian. I seem to remember her speculating that the churches focus on family can make men more helpful in childrearing (changing diapers and otherwise co-parenting). Of course there are no guarantees, but there is something to be said for the church grooming YM to become better than average marriage partners.

I think there is a lot of truth to that. It’s the institutional sexism that concerns me. But you are right, I need to remember this.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Quote:

Is it worth it raising daughters in the church?

For myself, I believe it is important to provide a counter to the hyper-sexually charged messages that my children receive in the school/media world they breath. Some of my daughter’s school friends wear heavy makeup and have boyfriends at 12. I anticipate that boyfriends will eventually pressure girlfriends into some form of sexual relationship (isn’t that the point of being boyfriend/girlfriend).

I do not want my daughter to “drink the Kool-Aid” at church. Nor do I want her to accept without challenge the messages that she gets from her peer group, the media, and other sources.

I hope to provide her with several examples of life patterns to help her understand that she is not limited to just one.

Yes, yes, and yes! I’m realizing more and more that what I missed in my life growing up was a balance… a realization that not everything in the church was “true” and perfect and that I could make decisions for myself even if they were different from the pathway laid out for me by the church. I hope with my daughters I can teach them to borrow the good from the church and the good from elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Neutralize the effects. Share how the church is changing to be more gender friendly. Even if it’s not enough.

Neutralize the “stay home and have babies” forever message, and teach the boys about non-sexist behavior at church and in the world.

Thanks, SilentDawning. I’m starting to realize maybe I can have more of an influence than I thought.

[Anonymous]

Roadrunner wrote:

I have one 18 year daughter who is a senior in high school and a 20 year old who is sophomore at Arizona State University. My answer is a “qualified yes” that it’s worth it raising daughters in the church. There are considerable negatives such as rampant sexism and misogyny but it’s getting better, and is not that bad and even progressive in pockets of the church. The YW leaders in my ward are excellent role models – about 75% of the leaders are highly successful professionals such as a professor at a major college, pharmacist, college basketball coach. Only one is a stay at home mom – my wife.

I’m a stay-at-home mom right now, too. I think it is great for my kids to see multiple options… I hope that they will know they can choose whatever they (and God) feel is best for them. Do you feel like the “rampant sexism and misogyny” in the church were a big stumbling block for your daughters? How did you help to neutralize that?

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

Yes, because strong, independent, feminists are needed.

The Church is stronger because my four daughters are in it.

Love that :clap:

How do/did you counter the sexism in the institution and encourage them to be a force for good?

[Anonymous]

dande48 wrote:

Only Love wrote:

Dande48, I’m intrigued by this. Are you referring to in the church or outside of it? I can see that being true outside of the church, but I very much had the opposite experience in the church (and I graduated from BYU less than a decade ago.)

Both, I guess, though I’m sure it varies from person to person. Since the change in the age requirement for Sister Missionaries, it’s become almost a rite of passage for most young sisters. With college and career, there’s a sharper division. If a girl gets married at BYU, she’ll be ridiculed for “only going to get married”. I heard choosing to be a stay at home mother, called “domestic slavery”, and not having a career as being lazy. “She just stays home plays with her kid all day. Can’t she at least get a night job?”. That’s another one I heard (from another sister, not her husband, BTW). My parents just recently made my sister swear she’d finish her college education. She’s getting married soon, and they’re afriad she’s going to drop out.

It’s common, I think, for people to insist that their values and life choices be applied to everyone; and look down on those who choose differently. “She couldn’t possibly really want _____!”. “She’ll regret ______ when she’s older…”. I think it’s wrong that anyone should tell a young lady what to do or who to be, or judge her for her choices. I feel like both modern feminism and traditionalists often act like the US millitary, who point their guns at those who live differently and say “Be free, or well shoot you!”

Wow! I had no idea it had changed that much! I guess that kind of makes sense with the missionary age change and everything. Hmm… that is good to know, because I want my daughters to feel like they can be full time moms if they want! I guess the focus needs to be on following their own hearts and the Spirit.

[Anonymous]

I confront it openly and directly, but gently and, usually, charitably.

They know I love the Church, but they also know all is not well in Zion – and that the Book of Mormon says those who think and say all is well are headed for woe.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I couldn’t agree more with what Curt said. The church needs feminists IN it, not out of it. Women in the church need us, and men in the church need us. And if they don’t like it, they can step over my dead body to uphold their antiquated sexist notions because that’s what it will take. I will not be silent and complicit.

:clap: I guess I need to trust that my daughters can BE the change instead of being passively influenced. And teach them to do that as well.

hawkgrrrl wrote:

This was my experience on the whole with dating non-LDS guys. The church is sexist in one way, and those guys were sexist in another way. There are good guys in both places, for sure, but as Roy pointed out, the percentage of men changing diapers is higher inside the church than outside it. I’d bet on that. The sexism we see and hear is mostly because the old farts are the only ones with the mic, and they still live in a world that ceased to exist around 1959–and thank God it did.

I think the key to your question is that YOU are raising your daughters, not the church. The church is just a backdrop, but the messages your daughters get about their self-worth and their goals in life come from your example and your values.

Thanks, hawkgrrrl. This is helpful. The way I was raised was so focused on the church being right on everything so this is an important perspective change for me. My daughters will be raised to think for themselves and to go to the Lord directly for answers!

[Anonymous]

Old Timer wrote:

I confront it openly and directly, but gently and, usually, charitably.

They know I love the Church, but they also know all is not well in Zion – and that the Book of Mormon says those who think and say all is well are headed for woe.

Thanks, Old Timer. I can see that balance in your posts and that is an example to me.

[Anonymous]

Only Love wrote:

AmyJ wrote:

There are messages I like at church. I like the teachings that every child is a child of God with innate worth and potential, so I focus on that. When my daughter was baptized last year, I focused the combined Baptism/Holy Ghost talk on joining the community of saints and having a gift tailored to her individual needs in life.

To counter the sexism in the church, I guess I try to use the tools that I internalize myself to teach her about her role.

Thanks, AmyJ. There are definitely messages at church that I like, too. I love your baptism talk focus and the examples you gave of talking things through with your daughter. Do you point out the sexism in the church to her specifically?

Not yet, not really. It isn’t a part of her narrative. We talk about the cultural origins of sexism in history, and some of how we see it in the church, but mostly we are talking over her head to each other. She and I watched “Little Women” last weekend, and I pointed out that women’s rights have come a long way since then since we can vote, we can write books under our own names, we can get jobs on our own merits. She did some head nodding, so something theoretically got through.

In my home, my husband stays at home and takes care of our children because he is the most qualified to do so (seriously, he makes AMAZING food!) and it fits our circumstances the best. My husband and I talk about the cultural divide between priesthood holders and R.S., but in our home it is a short gap. Our focus is on providing, presiding, and nurturing our children – and our efforts go towards those goals. In broad strokes, I may be the one who goes to work to provide for us, but my husband provides the structure that the children need. My husband may preside over meetings in our family, but in some things I have the distance and vision to see what the next steps are. There are times that I am not very nurturing and my husband steps in.

[Anonymous]

This isn’t really a great mantra I have, but it’s one I have anyway: “The one who writes the checks makes the decisions.” First of all, it’s kind of a might makes right way to look at things, but it does keep my perspective a bit in some important ways. When Benson gave his infamous talk to the “Mothers in Zion,” urging them to quit their jobs and go back to the kitchen, er, home, this mantra began as an embryonic seed in the back of my mind. Maybe that was the Spirit whispering that I needed to make and own my own choices (which also happened). The mantra helps me in a bunch of ways:

1) it reminds me that if you want to have control over your life you have to have financial independence.

2) it’s a good reminder that the people who have to live with the decisions have to be the ones making the choices. Other people can have opinions and make judgments, but they aren’t the ones living with those choices, so their opinions are just that. They aren’t the ones living my life. I have to make the best decisions for me.

3) in business, sometimes we get this arrogant idea that we create a product or service, and “take it or leave it.” But the reality is that customers will buy what they like. If what we are selling isn’t what is in demand, if people aren’t buying what we sell, we need the humility to understand that it’s not working for people. Our solutions are not helpful. We need to rework them. I’d love for the church and its members to get that dose of humility once in a while. Men (and I hope women) are that they might have joy. Part of joy is having palatable choices for how to live your life.

[Anonymous]

Only Love wrote:

Roadrunner wrote:

I have one 18 year daughter who is a senior in high school and a 20 year old who is sophomore at Arizona State University. My answer is a “qualified yes” that it’s worth it raising daughters in the church. There are considerable negatives such as rampant sexism and misogyny but it’s getting better, and is not that bad and even progressive in pockets of the church. The YW leaders in my ward are excellent role models – about 75% of the leaders are highly successful professionals such as a professor at a major college, pharmacist, college basketball coach. Only one is a stay at home mom – my wife.

I’m a stay-at-home mom right now, too. I think it is great for my kids to see multiple options… I hope that they will know they can choose whatever they (and God) feel is best for them. Do you feel like the “rampant sexism and misogyny” in the church were a big stumbling block for your daughters? How did you help to neutralize that?

I don’t feel the sexism and misogyny were a huge stumbling block for them because my wife and I both tried to call it out and explain it when we saw it. The fact that they could identify something unfair and not attribute it to God or some inherent inferiority helped. I tried to be as open as possible with them regarding church shortcomings, including in regards to equality. It may have worked well (too well??) – one of them attends church rarely, the other is a registered Democrat but will attend BYU, where Democrats are an endangered species.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

This isn’t really a great mantra I have, but it’s one I have anyway: “The one who writes the checks makes the decisions.”

I agree with pretty much all of the points you made. I think it’s great if both spouses can and choose to work. It leads to great financial stability. It means that if something happened to one (death, divorce) the other will be okay. And it would be ABSOLUTELY awful to be financially tied to an abuser. Like you said, with business, I think we’d all be better off treating our spouses (and our Church membership) like our #1 customers. I hate it that members are treated as if they have to stick around, because of an obligation. Same with marriages. Both partners should do all they can to make sure their union is one they both want to be in. I hate to feel controlled. I think most people do.

My gut feeling is that the mantra “The one who writes the checks makes the rules”, while applying very well to business and politics, isn’t very healthy for a marriage. Even when both spouses are working, one will always make more than the other. A spouse shouldn’t feel inferior because they make less than the other, or even none at all. And likewise, a spouse shouldn’t feel superior for “making more cheddar”. They should be equal partners, striving for the well-being and happiness of one another. Income is too often equated with power and (wrongly) with worth. But in marriage of all places, it shouldn’t be.

[Anonymous]

I’ve heard conflicting views on this. A case against is that certain wards seem to have a Stepford Wife type thing going on even among the YW, and they will bully girls for being different.

But that happens elsewhere.

Pluses

+ It is a community in a world where communities are being killed off.

+ They will learn public speaking (a very useful skill)

+ Girls are taught to avoid promiscuity and look beyond sex.

+ A positive role for family.

Minuses

– Gender roles.

– Interviews.

– Pressure to marry young.

– Homophobia.

I think the church teaches some worthwhile things which are declining in society. Service to others is certainly one. I love seeing our RS going into action and helping a sister in need.

[Anonymous]

SamBee wrote:

Minuses

– Gender roles.

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