- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I have been thinking a lot lately about where I fit in the Church and, to me more importantly, how to raise my children (4 yo and 1 yo) in the Church when I don’t believe the truth claims. I have decided as of late that I can stay and participate without feeling like I need to believe in the history or even some of the doctrine. I feel this way because I don’t see the history or some doctrine as part of the everyday Church experience. I see the Church teaching other things. What I would like input on from the group is what is the focus of the Church? I did an exercise a few weeks ago and looked at Oct GC and analyzed the message of each talk. I don’t think it should surprise anyone but the most common message was obedience. If I remember right 13 talks dealt with the topic. Then I looked at the TR questions. I did this because the temple is the ultimate goal on earth. So, what is the focus on entrance into the temple? 6 of the 13 questions dealt with obedience to leaders or laws and 2 were about how you treat others.
I have not done the same analysis on this conference but I will as soon as the talks are available in print. From listening obedience was in there but I don’t think to the same extend as Oct.
So, is obedience the first law or heaven? Is obedience really the ultimate goal in this life? I am not sure it is the message I want to teach my kids.
Please let me know what your thoughts are.
I believe there is scriptural evidence that Obedience is NOT the first law of heaven. For example, we read that if I have not Charity, then I am nothing. Therefore, the person who is obedient, but is not charitable, has nothing — lack of charity cancels obedience.
Therefore, love is the first law of heaven, in my view.
Also, I have been in meetings where people have been trying to push their agendas related to their callings. Say, family history. The number of times I have specific agenda-items portrayed as “the most important commandment” is staggering. I’ve heard fatherhood is the most important calling, that being called to do missionary work is the most important calling, and finally that doing family history is the most important thing we can do in this life.
I think that obedience is another attempt to further leadership aims, specific to the agenda and goals of the person espousing it. I’m reminded of a quote from Ben Franklin’s autobiography, where he reacted to a minister’s sermon indicating that in order to please God, you need to do this, and that, and finally, obey your ministers. Ben concluded the talk was meant to make good Presbyterians, not necessarily good Christians. And then he never went back!!!
Now, much of the Church advice is good advice. You won’t find yourself addicted if you avoid harmful drugs your whole life. Generally, obeying your parents is a good idea for youth who lack experience. Being chaste until marriage can do a lot to help you stay out of trouble and bringing hardship into the world. Obedience to Church leaders on every thing they want you to do, even when its not good for your inner peace, your family, or your health? Not so. HOwever, I stop short of obedience being the first law of heaven — Love Is!!!
No. Love is the 1st law of heaven
behappy wrote:I did an exercise a few weeks ago and looked at Oct GC and analyzed the message of each talk. I don’t think it should surprise anyone but
the most common message was obedience.If I remember right 13 talks dealt with the topic. Then I looked at the TR questions. I did this because the temple is the ultimate goal on earth. So, what is the focus on entrance into the temple? 6 of the 13 questions dealt with obedience to leaders or laws and 2 were about how you treat others…So, is obedience the first law or heaven? Is obedience really the ultimate goal in this life?I am not sure it is the message I want to teach my kids. To me, this idea sort of made sense as long as I believed these doctrines really came directly from God but as soon as I started to suspect that maybe they were just man-made traditions then some of these things were much harder to feel motivated about anymore. In fact, some of these unreasonable demands made me want to specifically resist getting a temple recommend again mostly because I started to really resent the apparent manipulation involved in these entrance requirements. If the Church asks me to do something that makes sense and I can feel good about it by itself then I wouldn’t mind going along with it but if they ask me to do something just because some LDS prophets said so then that’s just not a good enough reason for me anymore because they’ve been wrong before and can’t seem to keep their story straight if you look at their overall track record.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:To me this idea sort of made sense as long as I believed these doctrines really came directly from God but as soon as I started to suspect that maybe they were
just man-made traditionsthen some of these things were much harder to feel motivated about anymore. In fact, some of these unreasonable demands made me want to specifically resist getting a temple recommendmostly because I started to really resent the apparent manipulation involved in these entrance requirements. … This is the way I see it too.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:To me this idea sort of made sense as long as I believed these doctrines really came directly from God but as soon as I started to suspect that maybe they were
just man-made traditionsthen some of these things were much harder to feel motivated about anymore. In fact, some of these unreasonable demands made me want to specifically resist getting a temple recommendmostly because I started to really resent the apparent manipulation involved in these entrance requirements. … Once you check out of the temple recommend-holding concept, everyone in leadership seems off-base, I’ve noticed. You are a bit of an outsider as a result, but it does have its liberating aspects.
I didn’t have one for a while, and although leaders will say “you’re not keeping your covenants” there is no forum to confront you with specific commandments, as you have in a sense, “rejected the carrot”.
Accepting the Law of Obedience is the first temple covenant. That has been stated inadvisedly outside the temple as “Obedience is the first law of heaven.” That, in turn, has been taken (by me in my previous life) to mean that tyranny and dominion are in order to enforce and inculcate obedience. I actually do believe that obedience is the first law of heaven though I see it in a different way than most have described it thus far. I see the word “first” as an ordinal reference describing the progression of learning rather than a hierarchy of importance.
In other words, the first thing we have to learn is obedience. For those who have been to the temple, this should make sense.
Obedience is a telestial law paired with sacrifice – both laws that only take us so far in our progression before we must accept the Gospel, a terrestrial law.
Ultimately, the law that allows us to enter God’s presence is consecration – complete charity that seeks to elevate others at our own expense (i.e. Christlike love).
So obedience is the first law of heaven like kindergarten is the first grade in elementary school.
Exactly, M&G. Well put, as usual. mercyngrace wrote:I actually do believe that obedience is the first law of heaven though I see it in a different way than most have described it thus far.
I see the word “first” as an ordinal reference describing the progression of learning rather than a hierarchy of importance.
In other words, the first thing we have to learn is obedience. For those who have been to the temple, this should make sense.
Obedience is a telestial law paired with sacrifice – both laws that only take us so far in our progression before we must accept the Gospel, a terrestrial law.
Ultimately, the law that allows us to enter God’s presence is consecration – complete charity that seeks to elevate others at our own expense (i.e. Christlike love).
So obedience is the first law of heaven like kindergarten is the first grade in elementary school.
Exactly.If the subconscious mind observes a disconnect between the actions one chooses and the values one holds, consciously or unconsciously, then faith will not occur. Power from on High will not be bestowed. Nothing spiritually positive will be imbued.
HiJolly
So if I’m reading that correctly I think we can say that Love is the most exalted law of heaven. Obedience to who or what. All we have is a bunch of men telling us what we should do. We have writings we call scripture telling us what to do. But I see no heavenly person telling us that we need to be obedient to get into heaven. It is all third hand information that carries little weight with me anymore. I would gladly be obedient and follow God if he would just give me a clue what he wants. Until then obedience to the church is at my discretion.
I agree with MnG that obedience / submission / humility is the first in that it’s foundational. If you aren’t teachable, there’s no point in contemplating the divine. We should be teachable and strive to understand God’s will and His ways rather than justifying our own ways. But unquestioning obedience to human authority never was nor could be a virtue. After all, human authority may merely be pursuing its own human agenda. The Sermon on the Mount seems to support m&g’s description, especially if you look at that sermon as a description of the progression toward perfection. Everything starts with the Beatitudes (and obedience is an integral part of the type of humility that can produce the other characteristics), and everything ends with pure love. In other words, I have nothing new to add to what others have said. My answer to the post title question is, “Yes – and, No.”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.