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Orson wrote:
So if I’m reading that correctly I think we can say that Love is the most exalted law of heaven.
Absolutely! This is why Paul says multiple times that love is the fulfillment of the law – once we acquire this perfect Christlike love, we wouldn’t think of injuring our neighbor or offending God.
Remember in Moses, God tells Enoch that He really only gave mn two commndments (originally) and those were “Love one another and choose me (God)”. The same two commandments Christ said are the basis for all the law and the prophets – the two great commandments.
Love is definitely the most exalted law.
Fwiw, love was stressed as the most important law multiple times in General Conference. Therefore a pithy opening line for a conference talk might be: Obedience is the first Law of Heaven. But it isn’t the Last.
Thanks to everyone for this discussion — M&G’s concept of obedience being a fundamental is enlightening. I have always viewed that statement “obedience is the first law of heaven” as if it was THE most important one according to general TBM interpretation. But my question is this — now that it’s presented as a lower law — a precursor to greater commandments, exactly what are you obeying? What commandments are you talking about?
If it’s moral commandments we are talking about, I have, and teach my children, only one: The Golden Rule. Everything else is either supporting commentary/detail (eg. chastity, honesty) or “mere” spiritual practice separate from the moral commandment (eg. sabbath, fasting, prayer). I believe strongly in spiritual practices, and I realize they may give us the very power necessary to act morally. But they are not moral commandments.
Tom, I think the Church, if it even buys into the obedience law as the ground floor principle, and not the ultimate one, would say it’s obedience to Faith, Repentence, Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost that paves the way to higher order principles. I like your idea, however, but I think the first principles and ordinances of the gospel above are the ones the leaders would point to — its all about progression through ordinances and covenants. Oh, sure, SD. I’m not saying in my last post that I propose the church really is teaching or can be teaching what I said about the Golden Rule and about spiritual practices (which also include tithing, baptism, blessings, hymn singing, church attendance, etc.). I’m just saying that’s how I live as a person and as a father. So in that sense it is Mormon Doctrine, because I am a Mormon, and it is my doctrine. You might say it’s Pure Mormonism, or truth from all places and times as I understand it. Did I understand your comment at all?
SilentDawning wrote:Thanks to everyone for this discussion — M&G’s concept of obedience being a fundamental is enlightening. I have always viewed that statement “obedience is the first law of heaven” as if it was THE most important one according to general TBM interpretation.
But my question is this — now that it’s presented as a lower law — a precursor to greater commandments, exactly what are you obeying? What commandments are you talking about?
Well, according the D&C 84, the preparatory gospel is faith, repentance, and baptism. Anything that falls under the “jurisdiction” of the Aaronic priesthood is preparatory – in other words, leads us to the law of the gospel (Christ). Once we have received the Holy Ghost – not the one time ordinance of confirmation but the life changing baptism of fire – we live by the Spirit rather than the letter of the law.
Does this mean that we stop keeping the letter of the commandments? No. Just like Nephites who continued to live law of Moses even though they knew of Christ and just like the early Christians who did not return to sin (violations of the law) in spite of understanding Grace, we continue to obey. We know however, that salvation doesn’t come through our obedience but through the consecration of Christ’s sinlessness which He imparts freely to all who come unto Him.
There will be times, as in the life of Abraham, where we must choose the Spirit of the law but those conflicts are almost always purposeful periods of individualized tutoring under the guiding hand of God. It’s never just because you didn’t feel like keeping the letter of the law or doing so was inconvenient.
Once we are living by the Spirit, which giveth life, and not the letter, which killeth, we often keep the letter of the law so that we do not offend our brethren who have yet to become truly converted (baptized by fire). Just as early saints were commanded not to eat the meat of idols lest they offend. And then of course, there is the fact that the letter of the law is a type and shadow of the higher law.
For example:
Paying tithing and fast offerings foreshadow consecration.
Treating out bodies as temples through chastity and dietary laws foreshadows the purity and incorruptibility of the resurrected body.
Being honest in all our dealings foreshadows our ultimate acquisition of the unchanging nature of godly beings whose words never return to them void.
etc…
hawkgrrrl wrote:I agree with MnG that obedience / submission / humility is the first in that it’s foundational. If you aren’t teachable, there’s no point in contemplating the divine. We should be teachable and strive to understand God’s will and His ways rather than justifying our own ways. But unquestioning obedience to human authority never was nor could be a virtue. After all, human authority may merely be pursuing its own human agenda.
If this was true, I would say that Humility is the first law of Heaven. In fact Spencer W Kimball said that “humility is the beginning of exhaltation.” So, if you’re looking at the word “first” meaning “the first enabling principle”, the statement “obedience is the first law of heaven” is actually false. The first law of heaven is humility.
I can go along with this generally though — that you start out with humility and obedience in order to get to the higher commandments. However, I think the Church leaders, particularly the local ones, tend to interpret it as “Obedience to ME, is the first law of heaven” (putting it nakedly, for effect). It gets used to encourage the membership to serve the objectives of the organization, rather than to enable the members’ relationship with God.
However, let’s talk about the scripture in the New Testament that basically goes “he that receiveth my Servants receiveth He who sent me”. Indicating if you don’t RECEIVE Church leaders, then you are rejecting God. Ray could probably parse that one since the word “receive” could mean a variety of things/ However many people, myself included back in my TBM days. have openly used it to try to get people in my stewardship to do things like Hometeaching and such. Perssonally, I don’t know what “receive” actually means in this scriptural context, but in the future, I will probably NOT interpret it as meaning obedience.
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