Is the church the ONLY church……

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone.

I seem to be on this two steps forward, a few steps back journey. And maybe some of your insight could help.

Stuff I know:

–There is a God and He loves me. (Something I didn’t know through out all my years being the LDS over achiever. Interesting, huh?)

–Faith is real, cool, and it works.

–The BofM is powerful and opens my mind to eternal things and intimate personal things too, as well as helps me refine myself in terms of becoming more loving….more trusted…etc.

–There is a Holy Ghost that opens my spiritual eyes thru many of my human faculties.

–Most of the basics of the gospel or what many would call the core.

Stuff I am still struggle with:

–Priesthood

–Revelation and how it happens with the President of the Church and the 12

–The lack (my opinion) of more real charity, I mean the gift of God kind, in the church

–Polygamy in the eternities

–Whether or not this church makes me feel like God picks favorites (a concern I have with the OT as well)

–And finally…..one of the objectives of this site. Being in the church “on my own terms”. Not sure I can square myself to that one. If I am to turn my will over to God and do his will, then my terms would be swallowed up into His. I would be relying on the arms of the flesh…something that has repeatedly let me down in every area….and failing to trust the most powerful/all knowing/vastly loving being in the universe. How can I be OK with being in the middle somewhere? I don’t spose I know how. I can’t be at peace inside myself until I know where I am suppose to plant my feet. Don’t care much about how long it takes me to grow. But I don’t want to be as the NT says — luke warm water that the Savior would spit out of his mouth.

Ok. Dumping all done. Thanks for listening. Would welcome any insight into how you may have come to terms with these topics.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

–Revelation and how it happens with the President of the Church and the 12

For this, I would recommend reading “David O McKay: The Rise of Modern Mormonism” – I am part way through it and find great insights on the church leadership.

Poppyseed wrote:

–The lack (my opinion) of more real charity, I mean the gift of God kind, in the church

I think this is a broad, sweeping statement. I think it varies by ward, and I think it starts with you and how much charity you have for others. The more charity I have in my heart, the more charity I see others have.

Poppyseed wrote:

–Whether or not this church makes me feel like God picks favorites (a concern I have with the OT as well)

Depending on what you mean by “favorites”, but if in the traditional term He has preference for some of His children over some others, that does not compute to me. There is a pattern of rewarding some people based on their choices, and there is a pattern of choosing certain groups of people for certain responsibilities (whether that has anything to do with behavior in the pre-existence or just random, I don’t think we know)…but choosing one group to be the ones responsible to teach the other children is ok in my book…just one way to do it. Roles and responsibilities aren’t automatically linked to love and importance in God’s eyes, IMO.

Poppyseed wrote:

–And finally…..one of the objectives of this site. Being in the church “on my own terms”. Not sure I can square myself to that one. If I am to turn my will over to God and do his will, then my terms would be swallowed up into His.

I’d like to understand a little more about what you mean and what you think the purpose of this site is. “On my terms” doesn’t mean to me “My terms over God’s terms”. My interpretation of Christ’s teachings and my view of church practice and policy is mine, not yours and not my bishop’s. I choose this way to live as a mormon because I feel it is what God wants me to do. If I am choosing it for any other reason, I would be going down a wrong path and would be leaving this website behind. In my journey, the purpose of this site is not to rationalize what I want…but to seek truth from God and cling to what will make me and my family happy regardless of what others think is right or wrong for me. It is allowing me to question everything so that I can understand who I am in a much deeper and profound way.

[Anonymous]

Thank you, Heber. I will take a look at that book. I think I really need to read something. I don’t really have it in my heart to criticize the brethren. I just want to understand how this revelation thing works. I know Joseph’s revelations usually came after someone asked a question. I think my childhood mentality led me to think that the brethren had some extra access to Jesus……some extra ongoing commmunication with Him that would prevent the church from making key mistakes. I don’t think I understood that making key mistakes is part of growth and that Jesus could still keep the church from going astray AND allow mistakes to be made. Maybe this book will help me fill in the blanks.

Quote:

I think this is a broad, sweeping statement. I think it varies by ward, and I think it starts with you and how much charity you have for others. The more charity I have in my heart, the more charity I see others have.

I must sound incredibly judgmental here. I am sorry. I was hoping rather to sound observant. I don’t really want to sound that way because at the core my real beliefs is the understanding that people are just people and they have all sorts of flaws and limitations and inadequacies and heavy burdens. How badly I want to be better and more than I am only to realize my own lack. I think that this journey of crisis had at least one major objective…..and that was for Father to help me finally learn how to love and extend charity to myself and so I think God let me experience the intense rejection, the loneliness and the unkindness of others. I tried to learn the lesson because I wanted the results. And I have come a long way. But, some of the people I trusted the most….the people I thought were most trusted and refined by God were part of mechanism that caused me so much pain. I honestly felt like it was a Job experience. There wasn’t anyone but God and myself to turn to. After a time, my DH evolved enough to become a support to me. I will say that my therapist was the one ray of hope……but she was only a therapist. She couldn ‘t be my friend or my mother or my sister. I had to pay her to love me. You know?

So my concern is that I wonder why, if this church has the restored core of Jesus Christ’s gospel, why didn’t I see more compassion or understanding or friendship? It would seem to me that the church (here I go with a “should”) or the church people around me, should have been there in some way other than a destructive one. I think at the core my issues aren’t about forgiveness. I have been around the block with all of this and given each person as much human latitude as I can, including myself. But I do feel a great inability to trust mormon people and the leadership that is appointed. Sometimes I think the BofM is the best example of how the church can struggle to love and that the lamanites sometimes do it better. Other times I think that God was just pushing me to learn really important lessons and I needed to feel rejection and betrayal so that I could understand the depth of it. But other times I doubt the reality of the gospel in the first place and think that maybe it was all just a creation of culture. Or that maybe the saints are really good at being industrious and bringing dinners to expectant mothers……but maybe have a ways to go with regards to empathy and real engaged friendship.

Quote:

Depending on what you mean by “favorites”, but if in the traditional term He has preference for some of His children over some others, that does not compute to me. There is a pattern of rewarding some people based on their choices, and there is a pattern of choosing certain groups of people for certain responsibilities (whether that has anything to do with behavior in the pre-existence or just random, I don’t think we know)…but choosing one group to be the ones responsible to teach the other children is ok in my book…just one way to do it. Roles and responsibilities aren’t automatically linked to love and importance in God’s eyes, IMO.

Thank you. This REALLY helped.

Quote:

I’d like to understand a little more about what you mean and what you think the purpose of this site is.

I got concerned when I read something about “if you don’t want to go to the temple, then just don’t. Just worship in the ways the work for you.” The cafeteria approach. Something about that just didn’t sit right with me. I agree with everything you said, Heber. I couldn’t have said it better. I am just not sure everyone sees it that way. I guess I would hope people would see it that way. Maybe it has to do with just meeting people where they are at. Just an invitation to help people see outside of the black and white “box”.

[Anonymous]

Thank you, Heber. I will take a look at that book. I think I really need to read something. I don’t really have it in my heart to criticize the brethren. I just want to understand how this revelation thing works. I know Joseph’s revelations usually came after someone asked a question. I think my childhood mentality led me to think that the brethren had some extra access to Jesus……some extra ongoing commmunication with Him that would prevent the church from making key mistakes. I don’t think I understood that making key mistakes is part of growth and that Jesus could still keep the church from going astray AND allow mistakes to be made. Maybe this book will help me fill in the blanks.

Quote:

I think this is a broad, sweeping statement. I think it varies by ward, and I think it starts with you and how much charity you have for others. The more charity I have in my heart, the more charity I see others have.

I must sound incredibly judgmental here. I am sorry. I was hoping rather to sound observant. I don’t really want to sound that way because at the core my real beliefs is the understanding that people are just people and they have all sorts of flaws and limitations and inadequacies and heavy burdens. How badly I want to be better and more than I am only to realize my own lack. I think that this journey of crisis had at least one major objective…..and that was for Father to help me finally learn how to love and extend charity to myself and so I think God let me experience the intense rejection, the loneliness and the unkindness of others. I tried to learn the lesson because I wanted the results. And I have come a long way. But, some of the people I trusted the most….the people I thought were most trusted and refined by God were part of mechanism that caused me so much pain. I honestly felt like it was a Job experience. There wasn’t anyone but God and myself to turn to. After a time, my DH evolved enough to become a support to me. I will say that my therapist was the one ray of hope……but she was only a therapist. She couldn ‘t be my friend or my mother or my sister. I had to pay her to love me. You know?

So my concern is that I wonder why, if this church has the restored core of Jesus Christ’s gospel, why didn’t I see more compassion or understanding or friendship? It would seem to me that the church (here I go with a “should”) or the church people around me, should have been there in some way other than a destructive one. I think at the core my issues aren’t about forgiveness. I have been around the block with all of this and given each person as much human latitude as I can, including myself. But I do feel a great inability to trust mormon people and the leadership that is appointed. Sometimes I think the BofM is the best example of how the church can struggle to love and that the lamanites sometimes do it better. Other times I think that God was just pushing me to learn really important lessons and I needed to feel rejection and betrayal so that I could understand the depth of it. But other times I doubt the reality of the gospel in the first place and think that maybe it was all just a creation of culture. Or that maybe the saints are really good at being industrious and bringing dinners to expectant mothers……but maybe have a ways to go with regards to charity and what it really looks and feels like outside of all the good works.

Quote:

Depending on what you mean by “favorites”, but if in the traditional term He has preference for some of His children over some others, that does not compute to me. There is a pattern of rewarding some people based on their choices, and there is a pattern of choosing certain groups of people for certain responsibilities (whether that has anything to do with behavior in the pre-existence or just random, I don’t think we know)…but choosing one group to be the ones responsible to teach the other children is ok in my book…just one way to do it. Roles and responsibilities aren’t automatically linked to love and importance in God’s eyes, IMO.

Thank you. This REALLY helped.

Quote:

I’d like to understand a little more about what you mean and what you think the purpose of this site is.

I got concerned when I read something about “if you don’t want to go to the temple, then just don’t. Just worship in the ways the work for you.” The cafeteria approach. Something about that just didn’t sit right with me. I agree with everything you said, Heber. I couldn’t have said it better. I am just not sure everyone sees it that way. I guess I would hope people would see it that way. Maybe it has to do with just meeting people where they are at. Just an invitation to help people see outside of the black and white “box”.[/quote]

[Anonymous]

Wow, excellent comments from both of you. Here’s some of my thoughts:

Quote:

Stuff I am still struggle with:

–Priesthood

I think that Priesthood is two different things. Institutional, and personal. The juxtiposition of these is where things really get interesting, and I think, the way God wants it to be.

Institutional priesthood:

This is the right, authority(or, keys) to govern; The right to administer; The calling to keep the established ‘church’ intact and functioning. The brethren are ordained and that gives them the right to operate the church and keep it going, to organize and make callings; to release and call people to callings; to decide when to build chapels and temples; when to alter the endowment or other ordinances according to the needs of both the institution and the society in which the institution dwells.

personal priesthood:

This is the power of God. It is driven (or, enabled) by faith. But it goes beyond faith in that it is a stewardship given from God for us to act in His behalf. I don’t really want to go further in my comments at this time, as this is a ‘hot’ topic for me, and has been for almost a year. I need further light & knowledge and am receiving it bit by bit. Still working on my understanding, though, and so: I’ve said enough for now.

When these two combine in the same person, it is beautiful. My favorite example is either Nephi or Nephi (son of Helaman, grandson of Helaman).

Quote:

–Revelation and how it happens with the President of the Church and the 12

Yes. I think the brethren these days are emphasizing how this is not significantly different from how the Saints in general receive revelation. I see there being a continuum with factors such as faith, responsibility and need playing a major role:

More revelation <

---

> Less revelation

high faith AND

---

high doubt AND

large responsibility AND

---

small responsibility AND

high need (or, desire)

---

complacency

Quote:

–The lack (my opinion) of more real charity, I mean the gift of God kind, in the church

The natural man is strong, especially in our culture these days. It is deeply hurting the members of the Church. Keeping us from attributes of godliness, such as Charity.

Quote:

–Polygamy in the eternities

My comments would only make it worse, probably, if this bothers you… So, no comment…

Quote:

–Whether or not this church makes me feel like God picks favorites (a concern I have with the OT as well)

Loved Heber13’s comments on this, can’t add to it, really. Excellent!

Quote:

–And finally…..one of the objectives of this site. Being in the church “on my own terms”.

I see the Church and the Gospel as being two different, yet complimentary, things. I separate them in my mind. The Church was restored by God so it could sustain, cherish, protect and promote His Gospel. It does a good job, but not a perfect job. Even if the Church screws up in a major way, if we keep our hearts wedded to Christ, it will work out in the end.

The more LDS that keep the Gospel light within themselves, the better off the Church (and it’s members) will be.

Thanks for your comments!!

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

I’ll keep going until you or anyone else tells me to be quiet – because I like this discussion.

Poppyseed wrote:

So my concern is that I wonder why, if this church has the restored core of Jesus Christ’s gospel, why didn’t I see more compassion or understanding or friendship? It would seem to me that the church (here I go with a “should”) or the church people around me, should have been there in some way other than a destructive one.

“Shoulds” are dangerous. Beware of the “Should’ve”, “could’ve”, “wish-it-would’ve” quicksand! It is what it is…now what do you want to do about it? I wish I had answers to my prayers…but I choose to figure out what I learn from not having them and how my faith needs to be adjusted. I sure have learned a lot the past 4 months.

Poppyseed wrote:

But other times I doubt the reality of the gospel in the first place and think that maybe it was all just a creation of culture. Or that maybe the saints are really good at being industrious and bringing dinners to expectant mothers……but maybe have a ways to go with regards to charity and what it really looks and feels like outside of all the good works.

Good for you. Doubt can be a good tool if used in moderation. My prior mantra was “If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things” –Rene Descartes. While doubting everything all day every day doesn’t seem healthy to me, for periods of time, it is a healthy exercise, IMO. If it helps you learn something about yourself.

Poppyseed wrote:

I got concerned when I read something about “if you don’t want to go to the temple, then just don’t. Just worship in the ways the work for you.” The cafeteria approach. Something about that just didn’t sit right with me.

Something didn’t sit right with you about that, huh? Why? To me, that is the value of this website. It is exercising our thoughts and feelings to understand them. Why does that bother you? I think there is something you can benefit from by thinking through that. I am not judging you thinking there is something wrong with you thinking that, but I find it interesting it prompted a response from you. What does that mean?

I will tell you, it doesn’t bother me to hear others express how they worship God at all. In fact I have started finding studying some things on Buddhism has deepened my testimony in Mormonism, not diluted it. You may find our discussion on Expounding on Light interesting as you think that through.

http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=503&p=4254&hilit=Expounding+on+light#p4254[/url][/color]

Is the church the ONLY church? Is it pure white with everything in it you need in life? Or is it one shade of the light, perhaps the best one we have on this earth? Or perhaps just one color like all the other colors? What do you think?

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

I see there being a continuum with factors such as faith, responsibility and need playing a major role:

More revelation <

---

> Less revelation

high faith AND

---

high doubt AND

large responsibility AND

---

small responsibility AND

high need (or, desire)

---

complacency

I like the continuum idea!! Great!

[Anonymous]

Thank you Hi Jolley.

The continuum idea is very familiar to me as I think that same way. It is most certainly consistent with most of my experience.

I think that I am wondering about the idea of stewardship. Does it work like the stewardship I give to my 8 year old to do the dishes? And is the church much like my kitchen….with the dishes almost getting put where they belong but with the occasional cup in the linen closet and fork in the microwave?

When Jesus gives the charge to a human to “start a church” or some other such command along the way, does He in fact hand over the stewardship/responsibility ( meaning that they kind of run it as they see fit…..but that would also mean they have to clean up the messes they make too… hmmm. Do the prophets do that?) and then interfere as that individual desires? I guess I find myself confused a bit. For example: Joseph learns of polygamy and doesn’t teach it for a time because of fear or personal reservation. An angel comes with a sword and literally threatens the man to obey. This = BIG INFLUENCE from Jesus. Then there is all these Brigham Young comments on race and the Adam/God theory etc. that everyone is bent over and that frankly I don’t think the church knows what to do with. Where was Jesus then? Why not an angel with a sword telling Brigham to love all man kind and to correct the churches perception of things back in 1847? Or was there an angel and Brigham was too bull headed to open the door to him? Or was it just not time? (how many times have I heard that one.)

You see what I am getting at? God seems to have allowed some agency….and some blunders but not others. Hmmm. This does and doesn’t make sense with me. If the way the brethren receive revelation is much the way we do and if these men are in fact more righteous than the average bear and more in tune as a result and still human and prone to human error too, then I can assume that the Spirit would correct them as it corrects me. Or I can assume the the Spirit would ebb away or shine more light according to obedience as it does with me. Why would God force the issue (polygamy) on something that would surely bring scorn and rejection to the church and heartache and concern to so many thru the course of time and then not correct the saints views on other doctrines that have come from BY and influenced a centuries worth of people only to be discarded slowly and quietly? I mean, why wasn’t there some sort of doctrinal alarm system if in fact restoring the truth about doctrine and things was at the core of this whole mormon effort?

ANd with regards to polygamy: It changes everything for me meaning that it changes my view of God and his nature…..it makes me question my worth as a woman and what it means to be a man….. and it hampers my trust in God ( compartmentally, if you can understand that) and certainly my trust in Joseph Smith. I am greatful that at least we are taught that the practice is only conditionally righteous meaning that it is only for the purpose of “raising up seed” unto the Lord. This seems to put some viable understanding in place, but wouldn’t make it any easier to live considering all the “temptations” on our men these days to act sexually irresponsible while calling it “normal”.

And I suppose if this command didn’t end up coming from God, that at least the church did course correct at some point even if it was only to stop the persecutions from the government. I am glad they did! I certainly wouldn’t be a mormon if the practice still existed. ( just as a side note….I watched that Oprah interview with the Tx. polygamist women and I found so many things about that lifestyle disturbing, and not just the sexual aspects.) As it seems to have course corrected with regards to race…and the proper way to perform sealings etc etc. I mean, did the church need time to grow into these more accurate ways of worshipping? And if so, why? I mean we were ahead of the curve with regards to the WofW……why couldn’t we be ahead of the curve with regards to race?

BTW….this isn’t all that I feel. Just one side of it.

[Anonymous]

I do want to say something about, is the church the ONLY true church….Back in 1985 a Book of Mormon size book was being passed out in Utah called “God’s Word” final,infallible and forever. It’s purpose was to help bring us wayward mormon’s into the christian fold. Many bible belt churchs take a dimm view of mormon’s believing that works is helpfull in working out our salvation. They say, believe only and thou shalt be saved. Because of this mormon belief, of working out our salvation, they will not allow that we are christians.

I called two or three of the local Salt Lake bible belt type churchs that sponsered the distribution of the book and talked to the ministers. One of the reasons they gave for sponsering the book was that at every general conference one or more of the leaders state that the L.D.S. church is the only true and living church on the face of the earth. Where do’es that leave us, they asked.

The church leaders and its members must of course testify to that truth when inspired to do so. But I don’t believe we need to rub someone’s face in it to the point it becomes offensive. Pres. Kimball was a good friend of Norman Vincent Peale, and yes he may have bore his testimony to him, but I would suggest he never said, ha,ha Norman I belong to the one true church and you don’t. It is possible to stand on our testimony to the point it becomes offensive and uninspiring.

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed I am not sure that you want to continue with this thread but I am new here and find that we have a lot in common. It realllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy iritates me when I hear at testimony meeting “I know this is the one true church”, it grates on my nerves, it really grates on my nerves when it is older primary kids and teenagers who are doing it to (I think) immitate their adult influences I sure hope that they actually feel some of it rather than just trying to keep their parents happy.

So why does this bother me? Don’t really know, I guess part of it is that I have seen too many 30ish men and women who formerly were so sure it was the true church fall away, I think too much certainty like this is a way of hiding behind a “big idea” and not really working out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Does that make sense?

I think the real worry is that it shows that a person’s thinking and spiritual understanding is too rigid, and because it is rigid when it hits problems like Joseph Smith’s polygamy it shatters and we lose them.

So it gets all complex in my head. I think it is crucial that the Church has restored real priesthood authority, I firmly believe that those keys are real, important and the only valid authority operating on the earth. I think the problem is that when we say “This is the one true Church” we seem to be saying “We are the only ones who get to heaven all the rest of you are doomed, too stupid to understand the truth, and wasting all your energy in whatever other kind of worship you are involved in.” That’s the problem with the “one true Church” approach I think. So yes, I think we have the correct authority and that eventually everyone is going to need that authority BUT on this earth lots of of other faiths and no faiths are very Christian, full of charity and it is that charity that will take them into the celestial kingdom.

[Anonymous]

Hi Bill.

Yeah… I kinda forgot about this thread. I have been working so hard on all my issues since I posted and I am sure that I am different now. I am more peaceful. I feel like my mind is broader in its understanding of things. And I thank everyone here for their perspectives that helped me to break free of my own…..and trust my own too. if that makes sense……

I agree with the whole “I know” epidemic in the church. There have been a couple of threads on that very subject ( might want to check them out — good discussion) and I think I posted that I felt that sometimes people teach their kids how to testify like they teach them the pledge of allegience. And kids learn the words, but not the real meaning. I am NOT one of those parents. I don’t encourage my kids to testify at church. I try instead to ask them what they think is true and then tell me why or why not. Then we start to identify different parts as “testimony” and then we talk about why you might share those feelings in a meeting. My kids are not racing to the pulpit. My son doesn’t see the point. But I hope I am teaching them about how to come to real spiritual truth instead of just looking like it.

I don’t know why people in their mid 30’s have issues with the church and fall away. There are prolly so many reasons. I can’t begin to guess. What I am learning in my own journey is that my testimony needed to grow up with me and that I couldn’t rely on the rules and the practices to support my faith. I did sustain some trials that threw my testimony on its ear. But now I look back and I wonder if God didn’t know I needed that…..and I am grateful for the experience and growth I feel as a result of my latest strugglings and stretchings. I am coming back to myself and orienting to God is a better more centered more secure way than before. Not that I was weak before. I wasn’t. It was just that it was time to move forward to a broader view.

I think sometimes when people need to move forward that scares them or angers them. I think that because I was scared and angry. Maybe some just get so frustrated they say “bag it”! Sometimes the church can be so…..I dont’ know….a lot like jr. high! And I think some people quit before they see the light at the end of the tunnel. One thing I have learned is that I choose how hard or soft my heart is…..how open or closed my mind is. IF my heart is hard, then God can’t teach me and show me light. If we can learn to pass thru doubt in patience as we apply and exercize faith (sometimes with all of our will) to our problems, the answers do come and so does the peace.

Welcome to the site, Bill. Looking forward to your perspectives.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Bill Atkinson said…”This is the one true Church” we seem to be saying “We are the only ones who get to heaven all the rest of you are doomed, too stupid to understand the truth, and wasting all your energy in whatever other kind of worship you are involved in.” That’s the problem with the “one true Church” approach I think. So yes, I think we have the correct authority and that eventually everyone is going to need that authority BUT on this earth lots of of other faiths and no faiths are very Christian, full of charity and it is that charity that will take them into the celestial kingdom.

Bill, hope this helps rather than irritates. I thought with the priesthood restored and work for the dead, gave everybody a shot at getting there.

[Anonymous]

Jeriboy:

No irritation, I think more or less the same way. I add in the Millenium as well as a time that we get to sort out what needs to be done and I think all those with good hearts and charity will be there working on their salvation

Poppyseed

Thanks for your post, I am glad to see that you are gaining some ground and some peace. I am currently teaching teenagers in Sunday School and actually loving it a lot. What I think is important to help kids to learn is how to realize and understand that the Holy Ghost is actually talking to you. It doesn’t have to be all that buzzing and burning of the bosom which is more dramatic than many people every get to I think (I certainly haven’t) but a deep sense of peace, a sense of “this is right”, that is what I want to see at Church testimony meeting not rote “I know the Church is true”.

Lots more to talk about, thanks for replying.

[Anonymous]

Bill Atkinson wrote:

I firmly believe that those keys are real, important and the only valid authority operating on the earth.

I don’t understand why it would be in the least way hard to stay LDS with the view you expressed above. Can you share why it has been hard for you to stay LDS?

[Anonymous]

Hi Tom

It is a strange dynamic I admit. So at the outset I guess I must say that no matter what happens to my level of activity in a specific ward I will always know that I am a Mormon (sorry I know that I am supposed to say something else but that is part of the issue).

My core issue which I honestly hesitate to admit because a thunderbolt might come through the roof and hit me is the combination of the “correlated Church” and this constant barrage from General Authorities in conference, the Ensign and letters to “follow the prophet”, “follow your leaders”, “don’t complain or criticize because that is the sure path to hell” etc. etc.

So for a more direct example I think using the same lesson manual for coming on 12 years is a total insult to the members of the Church. To cap it off I think the manuals are very poorly done in terms of encouraging vital discussion and excitement about the gospel (but then I think, wait a minute, the Brethern don’t want excitement about the scriptures they want obedience, so being bored out of our minds in Sunday School is actually the goal so the manuals are doing exactly what they were designed to do — and then, wait for it, if you don’t find satisfaction in your Sunday School lesson, if you are bored THAT IS YOUR FAULT, you aren’t spritual enough, you aren’t contributing enough ). Ooops better get control of myself.

So it boils down to something like this: I am an adult, I am tired of MILK~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, I am not sure that this is the right thread to be doing this in so sorry Poppyseed if I am stepping on anyone’s toes.

[Author]

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