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Some of this is familiar… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx2DznBtncg There is an interesting quote about conversion out of Islam about two thirds of the way through.
I’ve read about half of the Quran. I believe it is possible that it is inspired of God. If you read the blessings promised to Ishmael the first son of Abraham you can see that God has made covenants with other people. Even though I haven’t read the Koran yet, I doubt it. Some have suggested that the Angel Moroni was really a demon in disguise but personally I think the Angel Gabriel that visited Muhammad is a more likely candidate for this explanation. Look at the results; I have a hard time believing that Sharia law and some of the intolerance towards “infidels” to the point of physical violence really comes from God. I don’t doubt that many Muslims are essentially good people that are simply trying to do what they think is right but at the same time I also think that some of the most successful lies in history are subtle because they mix true and false ideas while putting a strong emphasis on what is false. The Koran is as “true” as any other sacred text. I’m basing this on the half I’ve read and all the other sacred texts I’ve taken the opportunity to read. I’m sorry, I can’t agree with you “just me”. I don’t believe that all religious texts are equal at all. Can we really compare the Diamond Sutra with something L. Ron Hubbard cobbled together about gorillas? I don’t believe they are equal, either. Perhaps you could share which definition of “true” you are using. If we use the definition of “literal, fact” then I don’t believe ANY sacred text should be read that way. I believe they are all symbol and myth and metaphor.
SamBee wrote:I’m sorry, I can’t agree with you “just me”. I don’t believe that all religious texts are equal at all. Can we really compare the Diamond Sutra with something L. Ron Hubbard cobbled together about gorillas?
I think that “degree of truth” and “degree of value” are two different measurements in comparing texts.In the original post question…what requirements do you see must be met to agree the Koran is definitively “true” or “false”?
Well, if we’re looking to see if the Koran is true… we’d have to know if Jibreel/Gabriel really turned up, if Mohammed was really a prophet, if its prophecies were correct etc All of which sounds admittedly like the arguments for and against the Book of Mormon… But if we’re to get into truly Muslim territory, we should question whether or not it is true that not one mistake has every appeared in copying or printing the Koran, as sometimes stated.
The Koran has certain massive contradictions in it – one of them being over the treatment of Jews and Christians. And possible factual errors, none of which have been properly examined by many scholars, because of their terror of being murdered.
Actually the Book of Mormon has one major advantage over the Koran. It was never lost. 116 pages of the BOM may have walked, but the entire thing didn’t go missing like the Koran.
Sam, I am still unclear what definition of “true” you are using. Can I assume that you mean “literal, factual” truth? Because if that is the case I believe firmly that ALL sacred text will fail that test. None of them are to be read literally as historical fact-even if presented as such.
The Bible also has contradictions and so does the BoM. You can find lists of them and also anachranisms. Is a book automatically “not true” or “false” if it contains contradictions?
Actually I mean both factual and spiritual truth. Some parts of the Koran are factually true, and there is little doubt about them.
However, some parts aren’t. The question is whether or not they are lies. Did Mohammed get visited by an angel, or did he believe he had been?
Is the Koran the word of God?
Like I say, there is a boast that not one mistake has ever appeared in a copy of the Koran. That’s a definite, factual, yes or no question. I believe that to be untrue. No book could have ever been copied so many times without at least one copy having an error or a change in it.
Quote:The Bible also has contradictions and so does the BoM. You can find lists of them and also anachranisms. Is a book automatically “not true” or “false” if it contains contradictions?
Bible vs Koran = no comparison.
Koran vs Book of Mormon = Better comparison.
And I’ll explain why –
The Bible isn’t a book, it’s a single volume library. It comes from so many sources that it can’t be compared to a book which was “revealed” to one person in one time period. The Bible partly has these contradictions due to its multiple authors, cultures, languages (three or four of them – Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and some Latin)… the Koran is written in an archaic form of Arabic around the same time, and transcribed by a single person, if we believe the story to be true.
Therefore we can’t make a genuine comparison between the two.
Now the Book of Mormon is supposed to have multiple authors over a long period, unlike the Koran, BUT it is also translated by one person, that’s where the similarity begins.
With the Koran vs Bible, it is better to compare the Koran vs say Ezekiel, or certain sections of Genesis, or the Gospel of John. Each work in the Bible would have to be compared on its own merits. Maybe the Letters of Paul could be lumped together if we believe that they have the same author, or the Torah (although the evidence points towards more than one author, and the Mosaic authorship is a tradition)
I believe factual truth and “spiritual” truth are two seperate questions, so it is hard for me to talk about them under the same umbrella. For me, no sacred text is supposed to be read as historical fact (even if some of it may be). A myth can be true just because the symbols work. Is the Koran the word of God?
The Koran is as much the word of God as Leviticus or Numbers. I’d say Moses and Muhammed are about the same to me. Although I guess I don’t actually know who authored the stuff about Moses.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Some have suggested that the Angel Moroni was really a demon in disguise but personally I think the Angel Gabriel that visited Muhammad is a more likely candidate for this explanation. Look at the results;
I have a hard time believing thatSharia law and some of the intolerance towards “infidels” to the point of physical violence really comes from God. Alas my friend, you cannot believe in the validity of nearly any religious text if you are taking this view. There are some pretty horrific acts of vengence and war in the Old Testament. One example is Numbers 31, of which I have posted the “highlights”:
Numbers 31 wrote:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”
3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD’s vengeance on them. … 7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. … 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them … 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
YIKES! Kill all the boys (even the little ones??
😥 ) and keep all the virgins for yourselves…Also, in Nephi 4, Nephi is commanded by the Spirit to smite Laban for the betterment of the rest of the world.
I do not, however, believe the Koran is inspired text. Just thought I’d raise some Cain, and perhaps play “devil’s advocate”.
I think Truth either a) doesn’t come in Books or b) is Everywhere. If I am ready for real truth, I must look Everywhere. As for books, I will start here: -The Sermon on the Mount
-The Bhagavad Gita (I favor Chapters 12 and 16, and I favor the Arnold translation. Try them all.)
-The Tao Te Ching
-The Gospel of Thomas
-The Didache
-A New Earth
-A small person
-An old person
-My dreams
Tom Haws wrote:I think Truth either a) doesn’t come in Books or b) is Everywhere. If I am ready for real truth, I must look Everywhere. As for books, I will start here:
-The Sermon on the Mount
-The Bhagavad Gita (I favor Chapters 12 and 16, and I favor the Arnold translation. Try them all.)
-The Tao Te Ching
-The Gospel of Thomas
-The Didache
-A New Earth
-A small person
-An old person
-My dreams
Awesome.
I haven’t gotten to the stuff about intolerance toward infidels yet. But isn’t there a similar intolerance towards gentiles by the Old Testament? Also I think a better comparison would be the Quran and the Doctrine and Covenants. The Quran was not a historical record that was found and translated. It is a collection of revelations to the Prophet Muhammed. They aren’t even in chronologial order, just in order of length.
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