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crusader wrote:
I haven’t gotten to the stuff about intolerance toward infidels yet. But isn’t there a similar intolerance towards gentiles by the Old Testament? Also I think a better comparison would be the Quran and the Doctrine and Covenants. The Quran was not a historical record that was found and translated. It is a collection of revelations to the Prophet Muhammed. They aren’t even in chronologial order, just in order of length.
Cookie wrote:Alas my friend, you cannot believe in the validity of nearly any religious text if you are taking this view. There are some pretty horrific acts of vengence and war in the Old Testament. One example is Numbers 31, of which I have posted the “highlights”:
Numbers 31 wrote:… 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
YIKES! Kill all the boys (even the little ones?? …and keep all the virgins for yourselves…I do not, however, believe the Koran is inspired text. Just thought I’d raise some Cain, and perhaps play “devil’s advocate”.
You’re right, I’m not a big fan of the Old Testament as a whole either. I do like the New Testament quite a bit more but not necessarily as the literal “word of God.” As far as I’m concerned, if Jesus wasn’t for real then he should have been in an ideal world and I can still appreciate everything he said according to the Bible regardless of whether he walked on water or not. However, I can’t honestly say the same thing about Muhammad or even Joseph Smith in some cases.
I believe in inspiration, revelation, and even prophecy on a case-by-case basis but I have a much harder time believing that God magically transforms men into his own personal sock puppets long enough to churn out entire books full of revelations that are perfect in every way just because they have been given the title of prophet. Therein lies one serious difficulty with the Koran and Book of Mormon; because of the miraculous way they were supposedly delivered the logical assumption is that God must have directly approved all these writings as given. Now any minor problem with these books suddenly becomes a major problem and a threat to undermine the credibility of the entire story.
With the Bible there is a lot more wiggle-room to accommodate vastly different interpretations because like SamBee said it was actually written by many different authors over a long period of time and many of these stories were probably based mostly on oral traditions recorded much later than the purported events and characters they describe. Because of this, I don’t see why it should be any major surprise that people who were warlike and brutal almost as a matter of survival would also have gods and religious leaders that were also inclined to show no mercy to their enemies simply because that’s what the people at the time wanted in their myths.
Even with a slightly more civilized first-hand author like Paul I still don’t understand why everything he ever said should automatically be considered the literal “word of God.” Even if his conversion really was divine intervention, he was still an imperfect man and to me some of his statements about women and gays clearly reflect more on his own culture and opinions than they do on God. In my opinion, the real reason this whole “word of God” tradition has been so strong is mostly because this has been a convenient way for the clergy of various churches to exercise some level of control over people.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:[ the Bible…was actually written by many different authors over a long period of time and many of these stories were probably based mostly on oral traditions recorded much later than the purported events and characters they describe.
As Marcus Borg says, “The Bible is True, and some of it happened!”
I think at least some of the Bible did happen. I had someone say to me the Book of Mormon is not true because John wrote in Revelation that nothing could be added to the Bible. I reminded him that the Biblical canon was only set in 343 AD, and that the Apocrypha’s been taken out of it since.
But like I say, it’s not fair to compare the Bible with the BoM and Koran because they were transcribed in a short period, whereas the Bible bears the imprints of many different times and cultures.
SamBee wrote:I had someone say to me the Book of Mormon is not true because John wrote in Revelation that nothing could be added to the Bible.
I think that is another example of how people tend to take the bible literally, only to find out later that those statements can’t be held up under scrutiny. John’s book of revelations wasn’t even the last book in the bible chronologically, so it doesn’t make sense to hold to that.So, SamBee, after all this discussion on your wonderful thread…is there a way to prove the Koran is
false? Heber13 wrote:So, SamBee, after all this discussion on your wonderful thread…is there a way to prove the Koran is
false? Nice.
Heber13 wrote:SamBee wrote:I had someone say to me the Book of Mormon is not true because John wrote in Revelation that nothing could be added to the Bible.
I think that is another example of how people tend to take the bible literally, only to find out later that those statements can’t be held up under scrutiny. John’s book of revelations wasn’t even the last book in the bible chronologically, so it doesn’t make sense to hold to that.Excellent point, I wish I’d made that. Revelation was a controversial choice too, although I believe it to be one of the most interesting books in the NT. The only canonical books which come close to it really are Daniel and Ezekiel. Esdras in the Apocrypha too.
Heber13 wrote:So, SamBee, after all this discussion on your wonderful thread…is there a way to prove the Koran is
false? Well, I once had a conversation with a Muslim which went something like this –
“Why aren’t you a Muslim?”
“I don’t believe in it.”
“But Muhammad is a prophet.”
“How do you know?”
“It says so in the Koran.”
“How do you know that the Koran is right?”
“Because Muhammad cannot lie.”
That’s circular logic of course, and the oddest thing about it was that there was no personal testimony at the base of it, like we often hear about the Book of Mormon. Some points on the Koran.
* The entire book was lost for a period. It was rewritten from memory.
* Since written Arabic is a vowel-less and the language is archaic, I think some confusions may have crept in. (Same with the pointing of the OT Hebfrew.
* The Koran conflates a number of Biblical characters, some from widely separated periods. Mary (Miriam in Hebrew, Maryam in Arabic) is conflated with Miriam, mother of Moses for example.
* It has bizarre contradictions about tolerance of people of the Book (Jews and Christians) condemning them one minute, and praising them the next.
* It maintains the dietary laws of the Jews to a large extent.
How can I prove the Koran false? Very difficult one. I think this has to come down to the evidence of history and archeology, failed prophecy and mistakes, but even that doesn’t necessarily detract from its potential truthfulness.
SamBee wrote:“Because Muhammad cannot lie.”
That isn’t too far from many of the mormon circular arguments I have heard. There are a few doozies from Spencer W Kimble.
🙄 SamBee wrote:the oddest thing about it was that there was no personal testimony at the base of it, like we often hear about the Book of Mormon
– that is interesting. I have always loved that part of the gospel, that the spirit will dictate to me the truth…not just relying on prophets. That has held me in the church because of my experiences I’ve had. I wonder sometimes why others don’t experience it the same way I do, but all I know is I have had spiritual experiences I will not deny.
In reading some about how to study the Quran, it sounds like most claims are that it will make sense to the person when they are in the right spirit…not necessarily a spiritual confirmation, but enlightenment.
It still seems kind of circular. You believe it is true, or you are not preparing yourself enough to recognize its truth.
If you’re going to read the Koran, I suggest shopping around. There are a number of different translations around (despite the fact it’s not supposed to be translated), and some read much better than others. Some also have decent notes in them. I have read two translations of it, and bits of others. I think the Penguin Classics version is a good one, although it doesn’t give the original Arabic if you’re interested in referring to it. Heber13 wrote:…is there a way to prove the Koran is
false? It is basically impossible to prove most fundamentalists wrong whether Muslim, young earth creationist, etc. because they have the ultimate trump card counter argument that is irrefutable from their point-of-view:
“with God all things are possible.”So maybe God made the world look like it is billions of years old and like there was no global flood just to trick all the unbelievers. Similarly if God does something that doesn’t seem quite right there must have been a good reason for it, we just don’t know what that reason is yet. As long as this kind of thing makes sense to them there’s not much you can do to change their mind. When I say I don’t believe in the Koran at all it’s just my own personal opinion but I wouldn’t expect to ever convince many devout Muslims to agree with me. DevilsAdvocate wrote:Similarly if God does something that doesn’t seem quite right there must have been a good reason for it, we just don’t know what that reason is yet.
Great point…the “My ways are higher than your ways” is a nice little Isaiah scripture to cover mysteries and be able to go ahead firm in the faith.I think you are right, and with that, I think there really isn’t a way to prove things are true or false for everyone, just as you put it…
DevilsAdvocate wrote:When I say I don’t believe in the Koran at all it’s just my own personal opinion but I wouldn’t expect to ever convince many devout Muslims to agree with me.
I think that goes for most religion…I can become really confident for myself my religion is closest to absolute truth, and use some tools to help me affirm such, but in the end, if the Quran works for you, I can’t prove it is false for you, just like people have been trying to prove mormonism false for 180 years, but it is true to me.
I wanted to bump up this thread again, which Sambee started a while ago and had some interesting comments. This past week in Sunday School, I taught a lesson on how to strengthen one’s testimony in the prophet Joseph Smith.
As an example, I compared a few things about Joseph Smith and the prophet Muhammed, and asked the class, “How do you know which is a true prophet? How do you know if the Book of Mormon or the Koran is the word of God?”
We had some good discussion, as these youth tried to recite some things it sounded they heard at the dinner table from their parents about Islam, and some youth made some comments about current events in Egypt.
In the end, the class decided that the spirit should tell us what is true, and that is why it becomes a matter of prayer. I think they got the right answer, but I’m not sure they understand that might be harder than it sounds for some people. I also got the chance to remind them to be respectful of other religions, as we often don’t realize how similar the “strangeness” of other religions can reflect our own “strangeness” (i.e. prophets, scriptures, angelic visitations, truth restored, etc).
Is it possible the Koran has truth, and that God may have inspired a prophet like Muhammed to use scribes to record scripture, even if that same God then calls Joseph Smith to do the same thing and try to get the information corrected again, after years of it being messed up by mortals?
I think of the allegory of the tame and wild Olive Trees (see Jacob 5)
Quote:Jacob 5:41And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?
42Behold, I knew that all the fruit of the vineyard, save it were these, had become corrupted. And now these which have once brought forth good fruit have also become corrupted; and now all the trees of my vineyard are good for nothing save it be to be hewn down and cast into the fire.
Any thoughts?
So, SamBee. I take it generally that next time I suggest somebody read the Bhagavad Gita and the Dao De Ching, you aren’t probably going to chime in, “Oh, and don’t forget the Holy Qur’an.” Have I understood you correctly? Heber13 wrote:Is it possible the Koran has truth, and that God may have inspired a prophet like Muhammed to use scribes to record scripture
Yes. I think that is most likely. It seems to be the way God works. I can try to think it is different, but that’s what I see when I look around. If God wanted it different, he should have jumped in and fixed it the way he wants. Seeing as that didn’t happen, I have to assume my world around me is the way God intended it. And that includes a billion+ children of God following the words of the Koran, which came from a “prophet” not unlike our own.
I differ in that I don’t think all religions are the same. I say it like this: all religions are different rides in God’s amusement park.
Brian Johnston wrote:I differ in that I don’t think all religions are the same. I say it like this: all religions are different rides in God’s amusement park.
Perhaps there is a kiddie ride in that park called “StayLDS.com” where Brian imparts wisdom to all who choose to take that ride???
Heber13 wrote:Is it possible the Koran has truth, and that God may have inspired a prophet like Muhammed to use scribes to record scripture, even if that same God then calls Joseph Smith to do the same thing and try to get the information corrected again, after years of it being messed up by mortals?
I think of the allegory of the tame and wild Olive Trees (see Jacob 5)
Quote:Jacob 5:41And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard wept, and said unto the servant: What could I have done more for my vineyard?
42Behold, I knew that all the fruit of the vineyard, save it were these, had become corrupted. And now these which have once brought forth good fruit have also become corrupted; and now all the trees of my vineyard are good for nothing save it be to be hewn down and cast into the fire.
Any thoughts?
I don’t believe the Koran is “true”, but I think there’s something of value in there (also some unpleasant stuff), which means we shouldn’t throw out the babe with the bath water… For now, I prefer the Book of Mormon. I have read both, but believe the Koran often loses something in translation. With the Book of Mormon, we don’t know what came before the translation!
If us Westerners can get beyond the terror and Taliban image of Islam which is currently being promoted, it does create some interesting questions about Mormonism.
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