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I am currently reading stephen pinkers new book “The angels of our better nature.” The book is amazing so far, and it is fasinating to recogise the progress of society. Why is it that so may in the church feel it necissary to stress the point that “we are in the worst times in history.” I think it would be much more productive to speak about how because of the progress that has been made w are at a place where we can make even greater progess. What are your thoughts? Brian, thank you for posting this. I have had these same types of thoughts too. There’s so much gloom and doom and “we are definitely in the last days” stuff going around. And yet, there were times in history I am thankful I did not have to live through…some of those times seem worse than what we are in now! “The grass is always greener” syndrome runs deep. It always has. In some ways, this really is a terrible time to live, but I’ll take it here in America over any other time in the history of the world (other than a very few generations here and there in specific places). No, I think this is an imaginary trend that is mostly the product of idealized nostalgia similar to the way my grandma complains about how much prices have gone up. Many Church leaders give the impression that they think the 1950s were the best time ever the way they act like it is so important to encourage things like white shirts, short hair, no beards, one pair of modest earrings, stay-at-home moms, large families, etc. Brian, I think that the world, in some cases, is getting “stranger” not necessarily worse. One scripture that I like is 2Ne 10:3-4. It says, speaking of the coming of Jesus Christ:
Quote:there is none other nation (or time) on earth that would crucify their God. For should the
mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent, and know that he be their God.
This tells me that Jesus came a the very worst time in earth’s history. This isn’t it.
Mike from Milton.
I firmly believe that the world is a better place than it was, and that it’s getting better. Church leadership has a vested interest in making it seem like the world is just plain wicked and getting worse for two reasons. First of all it helps create an “us vs. them” mentality that apparently is very motivating for a lot of people, and second because that is part and parcel of our narrative — we are “latter-day” saints, after all. Excellent point, Mike. It’s hard to argue that the world is more wicked or worse now than it was back in that day. I heard an interview with that author on Coast to Coast radio. He was fascinating and made compelling points. The world is actually becoming less chaotic and less violent IMO. I think where the more fundamentalist side of religions approach this though is in equating secularism with wickedness. The world IS becoming more “wicked” if you look at it through that lens. The Church (in the very broad, medieval European sense) has slowly lost it’s near monopolistic power and control over every aspect of life over the past several centuries. That is seen as a decline. I see it as a better balancing. Religion needs competition in the arena of social governance. The reverse is also true — religion provided a powerful check and balance against the rulers (Kings, etc.). I think it should continue that role.
Here is what our current prophet told us last conference (Oct 2011):
Quote:We live in a time when we are surrounded by much that is intended to entice us into paths which may lead to our destruction. To avoid such paths requires determination and courage.
I recall a time—and some of you here tonight will also—when the standards of most people were very similar to our standards. No longer is this true. I recently read an article in the New York Times concerning a study which took place during the summer of 2008. A distinguished Notre Dame sociologist led a research team in conducting in-depth interviews with 230 young adults across America. [snip]
I share with you just a portion of this very telling article:
“The interviewers asked open-ended questions about right and wrong, moral dilemmas and the meaning of life.
[snip]
“The default position, which most of them came back to again and again, is that moral choices are just a matter of individual taste. ‘It’s personal,’ the respondents typically said. ‘It’s up to the individual. Who am I to say?’
“Rejecting blind deference to authority, many of the young people have gone off to the other extreme [saying]: ‘I would do what I thought made me happy or how I felt. I have no other way of knowing what to do but how I internally feel.’”
Those who conducted the interviews emphasized that the majority of the young people with whom they spoke had “not been given the resources—by schools, institutions [or] families—to cultivate their moral intuitions.”
Brethren, none within the sound of my voice should be in any doubt concerning what is moral and what is not, nor should any be in doubt about what is expected of us as holders of the priesthood of God. We have been and continue to be taught God’s laws. Despite what you may see or hear elsewhere, these laws are unchanging.
I could argue that the response ‘It’s up to the individual. Who am I to say?’ is progress, progress in tolerance and open-mindedness that youth are not so hell-bent on one way of right and wrong.Others may argue that this is a sign the world is getting worse because people don’t know what is right or wrong, or if it matters.
BrianKissell wrote:I think it would be much more productive to speak about how because of the progress that has been made w are at a place where we can make even greater progess. What are your thoughts?
I don’t think we want to rest on our laurels. If some things are getting better, what are some things that are successes and that we should keep improving, and what things can still be improved and keep pushing for making the world better for the next generation.
However we decide to do that, I think it needs to be done with facts. Not scare tactics or rhetoric that does not hold up over time.
I think Pres Monson has a good message that we need to keep teaching the younger generation that things do matter, and that there are some things that are moral and immoral. But I don’t think it is a bad thing to also teach the youth they should think through this themselves, not just take the answers from parents or church authorities. For some, it will take time to figure it out, and maybe they need some guidance to know how to think it through. But then, when they develop their own beliefs and testimonies, they will be better off knowing why they believe what they do.
No. It is not. cwald wrote:No. It is not.
+1. as a wayfarer, the world is a pretty amazing place, full of goodness and wonder. to say otherwise is to manipulate emotions thru fear.Heber13 wrote:Here is what our current prophet told us last conference (Oct 2011) …
Wasn’t that also the same conference (and perhaps talk) where he disdainfully dismissed the “worldly” notion that “all you need is love”? That kind of bothered me. Wasn’t that Jesus’ basic message?
doug wrote:Heber13 wrote:Here is what our current prophet told us last conference (Oct 2011) …
Wasn’t that also the same conference (and perhaps talk) where he disdainfully dismissed the “worldly” notion that “all you need is love”? That kind of bothered me. Wasn’t that Jesus’ basic message?
Yes. It was.
Quote:Why is it that so may in the church feel it necissary to stress the point that “we are in the worst times in history.” I think it would be much more productive to speak about how because of the progress that has been made w are at a place where we can make even greater progess. What are your thoughts?
This progress applies to very few people in this world, mostly those living in the west, plus Japan, Australia etc.
The majority of the billions in the world do not have access to clean water, or enough food. A lot of them live in warzones too.
SamBee wrote:Quote:Why is it that so may in the church feel it necissary to stress the point that “we are in the worst times in history.” I think it would be much more productive to speak about how because of the progress that has been made w are at a place where we can make even greater progess. What are your thoughts?
This progress applies to very few people in this world, mostly those living in the west, plus Japan, Australia etc.
The majority of the billions in the world do not have access to clean water, or enough food. A lot of them live in warzones too. Hmmm? Maybe —- but no more so than in the past. I don’t have the official stats, but I have feeling that if one compares the percentage of the total population and the number of folks without water, food and in warzones, it will the lowest since the gods populated this planet millions of years ago.
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