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I see myself as being available when that first sign of trouble happens. Only apply treatment when it’s necessary…and be on the lookout for when it is needed. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I think this issue is going to play itself out more and more with more and more members. When we insist on retaining meaning in something that may not have any real meaning we have to bend and warp our beliefs and perspective to fit our new paradigm. We do not seem to be able to just let go and realize non literal means not true. There is little indication that early leaders even remotely thought all this stuff to be non literal. They believed what others said or fabricated their own stories out of pious fraud. It is now that the evidence is against a literal view that we take the nuanced approach. We say it works for us to view it as non literal which is OK if you realize it is just that not true. It may be akin to poetry or good fiction. It can move me and uplift me but it does not make unicorns real. I say you are blessed because your daughter listens to you. She trusts you and you did her a favor. She is on the road to living an authentic life. It may be hard for awhile but it will be better in the end. My advice is let it run its course and refrain from trying to do damage control by saying how good the church and scriptures really are. Which also means you do not have to malign them. If she is intelligent as I am sure she is she will find what works for her.
Perhaps I can draw an analogy. I have a really close relationship with my daughter. And I love jazz. She took jazz lessons when she was younger, and we played in a little jazz band together. it wasn’t long before we both realized she didn’t like jazz. Having given her the freedom to believe what she wants about jazz, I had to accept that she simply loved other forms of music, and will evolve into more of a church pianist and player of spiritual pop music. I’m preparing myself to view my children’s church experience the same way. My son may not serve a mission, my daughter may not marry in the temple. There is a sense of “release” regarding the spiritual path they may take. It will be their own eventually.
Your answers have been so helpful. I have bundled up some of your answers and sent them off to my daughter with the following cover: wayfarer wrote:Dear [daughter],
I’ve been thinking about you and worried about you for the past couple of days – nothing you can do about that – it’s what parents do.
I’m including, below, a chain of advice I got yesterday from friends on “one of those internet groups”, although this one is not anti-mormon (nor particularly “true believing”), but rather, one focused on staying LDS when one has challenges with some of the history or practice of the church. My participation in this group is generally to help us sort through faith issues, and finding ways, together, to stay involved and engaged into the Church.
I think you know that I’m forever on a journey. From your mom and my first date together, I asked her “what is the meaning of life”. This is a plague and challenge that I will always have. Fortunately, I have come to realize that it’s ok to have questions, in fact, healthy to have questions. Most people, however, and particularly church members of what we call the “True Believing Member/Mormon” variety (TBM), are encouraged not to ask questions, because that shows a lack of faith.
That is BS.
Asking questions is the way we learn. Questioning, as a technique to introduce and instill fear, uncertainty, and doubt, is different than “asking questions”, however. It’s important to know the difference between asking questions, as a means to learn, and questioning, as a means to doubt. There’s even a third category, the question that has no answer – and to me, that’s the most important one.
In the book “Hitchhiker’s guide to the galaxy”, the author creates this massive computer that is supposed to address the “Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything”. And the answer is “42”. Someone then asked, what is the question? And to get to the question, “they” said another computer would have to be created that would 10 million years to build, called “Earth”. There are some points to grapple with here.
Anyway, I have been involved in mormon discussion groups on the internet for nearly 20 years. My purpose is to help those who struggle with faith issues to come to a more reasonable, adaptable position on their faith issues, and find peace and joy in the church. It helps me, as well, keep focus on the most important values we share. On the other hand, I have drunk deeply from the wells of other faiths, through my involvement with the Interfaith Conference of Washington, and as well, through reading, traveling, and being extremely interested in world religions. I am quite expert in Taoism and Hinduism, as you can probably imagine, but as well, Catholicism and early Christianity.
It’s a personal quest that I don’t discuss a lot about, because mom finds it just weird, and none of you girls are interested when I throw books like Tao Te Ching your direction. But it does lead me to an understanding of religion and faith in a different way than what most people in the church are used to. And without the context and background, it would be hard to get where I am: that is, faithful LDS while not having to believe all things are literal, and yes, having a deep appreciation for both the uniqueness of LDS doctrine as well as the wondrous value of other faith traditions as well.
This quest is very perilous, though. LDS leaders today do not like people researching outside of standard works or publications, because most LDS have been so sheltered in their beliefs that they are shaken in the extreme by finding out that things are not so white and black as we’re taught. As well, the very last thing I want is to have my children depart from the gospel that has brought so much joy to our lives. Yes – there are challenges, big ones, with the narrow-mindedness of many LDS, but all-in-all, it’s true for me, and it’s my tribe and culture, and I’m loyal to it.
So with that in mind, I offer the advice I received from my friends on one of the forums I participate in. Please don’t be offended that I asked, and please understand that all this is anonymous – I don’t use my real name anywhere in these discussions (although I used to in the 90s). To provide context of terms, you’ll see some things here:
“TBM” – “True Believing Mormon or Member” – not meant to be offensive, but this is someone who does not have any doubts or issues about Mormonism, buys the complete story without questions or questioning, and is greatly disturbed by those who doubt. TBMs don’t like to be called TBM, but it is a term of respect. Some of us simply don’t know how to be TBM.
“Middle Way” – This is a term of much dispute. I am a huge proponent of the Middle Way, meaning the idea that truth is often not at the extremes, but rather in the middle. Middle Way is not mediocre, although there are those who suggest that Middle Way Mormons are lax in their obedience to commandments. I reject this concept. Middle Way is hard work, because it requires one to set aside extremes of emotion, of argument, and of time & place, to determine what is the truth. Middle Way finds truth in all things, and rejects falsehood. Middle Way is the way of Confucius, of Buddha, of the path between arguments. Middle Way also refers to time, as in Dieter Uchtdorf’s July Ensign Message of the First Presidency – “We are in the glorious middle of our eternal lives”.
So, with all this in mind, here is my original post, with follow-up messages.
I love you very much!
-dad
There is a lot of love in this cover and the tone is positive. I hope it is received well. wayfarer, I can really relate to your daughter. This has been the number one question that has occupied me for the last few years. I’ve read many books, and thought many thoughts, but I’m still stuck at this: if my religion is not literal, is there still enough there to make it worth it? I don’t know.
Do I feel good about teaching this to my children?
I don’t know.
Can I make it work and find spiritual power there?
I don’t know.
amertune wrote:wayfarer, I can really relate to your daughter. This has been the number one question that has occupied me for the last few years. I’ve read many books, and thought many thoughts, but I’m still stuck at this: if my religion is not literal, is there still enough there to make it worth it?
I don’t know.
Do I feel good about teaching this to my children?
I don’t know.
Can I make it work and find spiritual power there?
I don’t know.
of course we don’t know — no-one does, and that’s the amazing wonder of it.I have been listening to the MormonMatters segments on Middle Way Mormonism and have been amazed at the depth and commitment most of the speakers have toward the church and culture.
98–99: “Middle Way” Mormonism and WomenI feel that I have tried to be authentic with my five daughters as they’ve grown up in the church. Since I’ve been unorthodox for all of their teen and adult years, I’ve been pleased that for the most part, they have been quite liberal as well, both in religion and especially in politics. They’ve chosen paths, not necessarily what I or my wife wanted, but for the most part it works for them.
But disaffection is different. Disaffection is moving away from something. For many people, disaffection leads them out of the church, and perhaps it needs to. In the case of my #2, who is now 30, she has no place in the church because she is gay. Until 2008, she would at least come and join us on major occasions: C&E + Mothers’ day, blessings, etc. Now, after prop8, nothing. Prop8 told my daughter, nephew, and niece that there is no place for them in the religion or culture of mormonism. I accept that — it hurts, but I accept it.
As well, the church does do damage to children in some ways, but certainly helps in others. I thought we helped them out through their teen years. My #3 (the subject of this thread) was a cheerleader in high-school, a top-notch competition one, and captain of her team as a senior. She had exceptionally good dress style, and loved to go out dancing and having fun with her friends. Fashionable dress at that age, more than 10 years ago, was clearly not LDS standard, and she did her share of having an alternative wardrobe in the car as she left to go various places. She also pulled stunts like making her bed look like she was in it as she sneaked out the back door to go to teen-oriented dance clubs in downtown DC.
Yet through all that time, she never violated the word of wisdom or law of chastity. She was condemned by her YW teachers and leaders not for lack of attending, progressing, or supporting activities, but because her clothes, modest by any reasonable standard, were not acceptable to these leaders. There were nasty letters to the bishop, anonymous letters in our mailbox, unstamped, the whole schmear. She graduated valedictorian of her high school class of 600, went to BYU for two years, then returned home to marry in the DC temple her newly converted boyfriend, and finished up at George Mason with a 4.0/Summa Cum Laude of her undergrad class: triple major. Yeah, I’m proud of her. you can tell. But what I hate in all this, is that she had lots and lots of non-member friends, but the church people shunned her simply because she was popular and dressed well but not according to FTSOY.
Her husband is also just as amazing — they’re both getting masters degrees now, and have two kids.
So why am I bragging here? I can’t resist it. I was with my oldest grandson, one of her kids on Monday night, playing at a playground — he wanted to go play basketball (he’s 2.5 years old), and we didn’t have one, so we pretended — how cool is that? had a ball.
sorry, still bragging.
The church has so much for families. I think, as an unorthodox parent married to a TBM feminist, we were able to instill great values in our kids, freedom of choice, and we did not require them to follow all the silly rules. Yes, there were consequences: censure and shunning, but we held our family together through the culture and tradition. It materially helped us as a family. The only serious bug in the ointment is the LBGT censure and shunning. That’s just wrong. True as well, the church’s position on women should have been a serious issue to a family with one dude and six women, but you know? it wasn’t, because my wife would NEVER accept any second-position on anything. I would only JOKE that I was the man of the house. My wife was convinced that god gave me five daughters because I have no clue about women. She’s right.
Even in the areas where we would disagree with the church, we were able to have informed discourse as a family about what it meant. But we never were negative with the children about church things. Sure, GC was generally nap-time for dad, but I didn’t vent in front of my kids what I thought of a given talk at the time. Mostly, until 2008, I didn’t care – in one ear out the other – fix the car, clean up my office, play a game on the computer, or sleep — conference was mostly church vacation for me, although my DW insisted on all sessions.
What I’m saying, I guess, is that while I personally am pretty much a basket case, and my gay DD is clearly out, I think the kids and my wife have benefitted greatly by the church. That’s not so bad, really. We didn’t have issues teaching them that sexuality was good in its right place, we had no problems with masturbation, by definition, we pretty much had a good time: except for one material thing: the church censures and shuns those who do not appear to follow the rules, and is specifically hostile toward gay members.
So, I guess it would depend upon your situation. I love the church, and hate some of the things people and the culture do. I love some of the doctrines, and love the idea of personal revelation, but question the chaos and self-empowerment that one’s ego allows them to have because of it. Yes, it’s a mixed bag. But I’ve also journed through at least six other faith traditions in detail, and come back her to home.
There is something that Jared Anderson said in the above podcast — He LOVES fringe mormonism. He feels called to it. That really resonated with me. I love it here — this is my tribe and culture — this is my home. Yes, I need to live authentically, and that means openly opposing things that I find to be immoral or unjust, like the gay marriage position. And if that lands me in trouble…if they want to take away my membership or TR because I am vocal about some thing, “Molon Labe” — “Let them come and have it”.
amertune wrote:I’m still stuck at this: if my religion is not literal, is there still enough there to make it worth it?
I’ll throw this out to chew on:
Quote:If my religion was only strictly literal, would there still be enough to make it worth it?
To me, I really don’t know if there would. When I think about the church lessons that get hung up on literalness – it takes me nowhere, it leaves me empty. I don’t know how to apply anything to my own life.
Orson wrote:I’ll throw this out to chew on:
Quote:If my religion was only strictly literal, would there still be enough to make it worth it?
To me, I really don’t know if there would. When I think about the church lessons that get hung up on literalness – it takes me nowhere, it leaves me empty. I don’t know how to apply anything to my own life.
that’s really good.Thank you, Orson. That ought to be read in every home and class in the Church – not preached as “the one true way” but just read for understanding.
My wife hates a lot of this. She is ok at times and then it flairs up and boom she is all upset again at me. What do you guys do? I try not to flaunt it on her face. yeah, my wife hates it too. Is there an easier way? probably not. I sat through church today, and the entire priesthood was about how we need to pay tithing before essential expenses…I wanted to throw up…it was like each minute was going by in slo mo. wayfarer wrote:yeah, my wife hates it too. Is there an easier way? probably not. I sat through church today, and the entire priesthood was about how we need to pay tithing before essential expenses…I wanted to throw up…it was like each minute was going by in slo mo.
Did you say anything, or sit tight? Sometimes I can sit tight, other times I can’t. A couple of weeks ago someone was saying that a blessing of paying a generous fast offering was that when he phoned the tax office a few days later they told him his bill was lower than he expected.
I couldn’t hold my tongue and said “do you actually believe that God intervened and influenced the decision and agency of your tax officer to reduce your tax bill in direct and immediate response? Shouldn’t we just feel grateful for coincidences and not believe that every good event is somehow a blessing for our righteousness.”
I then brought up the story of a helicopter crash in London a few weeks ago saying: “The helicopter crashed into a crane, but the crane operator, who should have been in the crane, was late for work because his sons, who usually wake him up, overslept. A wonderful miracle right?” (the priesthood nodded energetically) “But what about the pedestrian who was walking by when the crane fell to the ground, crushing him. Or the helicopter pilot who crashed in the first place? Where was God’s intervention then? Perhaps the helicopter pilot died because of his own actions, but the pedestrian? Couldn’t God have caused him to oversleep too? In fact, a delay of 10-15 seconds would have been enough to save him. But he didn’t. And yet you still believe he has time to go and fix someone’s tax bill?” When someone pointed out that the crane driver’s guardian angel must have made his sons oversleep I had to grit my teeth really hard and say “…and where was the pedestrian’s guardian angel?” I resisted adding: Perhaps he overslept…
@Mackay11 I say awesome job! I think we sometimes don’t stop and think what the implications of what we say even are. We’re so conditioned to look for the good, the miracle in everything we don’t see how doing so can be harmful to others. So the person that got crushed was just not as righteous as the crane operator? Or it must have been God’s will that the pedestrian be killed…I would have said something too. Maybe I (we) shouldn’t, I don’t know. All I know is I doubt that I’m the only one that would sit there and wonder why God chose to save the guy a few bucks on his bill when choosing not to save my infant child. If I offend a few people by bursting their single minded warm fuzzy view, so be it. I keep my mouth shut most of the time just so I can comment at times like these.
:lolno: Amen, eman. (love how that sounds) The worst part of many “faith-promoting stories” is the implication of unrighteousness or unworthiness of those who weren’t saved. It’s not malicious or intentional in most cases; it’s just a case of not thinking through the implications and not recognizing the rameumpton on which the stories are built.
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