Is there truly a middle way?

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone. Been awhile since I’ve been on the forum. I have now not attended church for over 3 months. I have not accepted any callings. I have basically distanced myself completely from the church to try and sort all of my feelings. I want to ask if there is really a middle way? Here is what I’ve discovered since the separation so far.

1. I don’t miss church at all. I enjoy weekends a lot more. All the church stuff I was doing was out of a sense of obligation/duty or even guilt. Now I feel like I’m free of it.

2. As I read people’s views on all the different web sites I’ve gotten a huge perspective on a lot of different topics with what people are struggling with (many of the same things that I am dealing with). What I’ve found is that now I am less judgmental of others. I am more open to different opinions. I’m definitely more open minded about so many more things now where previously I would just try to find out what the church answer was to the issue.

3. Spirituality – this is something that I could use advise on. I used to think I was somewhat of a spiritual person but now I feel no interest in reading scriptures, praying or even discussing religion as a topic of discussion. Where before the motivation was so much about “doing” so as to ensure a place with God that now when I hear “we must do all that we can to get into the celestial kingdom”, it seems like so much displaced effort.

I could give some more examples but I guess the main question I have is, is there a middle way really? I seem to recall on a podcast somewhere that the more orthodox you were brought up, the harder the dominos fall when they fall. That certainly applies in my case. I just don’t see myself ever feeling like I did before, no way. I can’t just walk away from everything, I have a son that wants me to be in the temple when he gets married someday (he is currently at BYU) and a wife that would be heartbroken if I was not there too.

I don’t want to pay tithing anymore. Church meetings seem to be so boring and repetitious. It all feels meaningless and like a big waste of time. I feel like I have wasted the last 40 years of my life actually.

So aside from just turning my back on all of it, how do you construct a middle way? Can you do it? Does it work? I know it is different for everyone but I’d sure like to read other people’s experiences.

[Anonymous]

I’ve got a few thoughts:

1) In case of doubt stop paying tithing now. If you aren’t completely sure you can put the money in a bank account and decide in December. One thing I kick myself for is not stopping paying tithing sooner. All of the money I gave the church hurts – they money I gave the last few months I paid tithing hurts the worst.

2) Revelation 3

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

I just happened to write down my personal view on spirituality for something else. I post it right after this one.

[Anonymous]

I believe that from an evolutionary standpoint that we are animals.

However we have evolved to have language, complex society, and rational thought.

This means that although humans are capable of acting in an animalistic way that we can choose to be something more. As doctor Who would say we can choose to be extraordinary.

We can make to choice to be humane. This choice to be and act humanely is what I would call “god”. It is the spiritual or even divine aspect we possess as homo sapiens that allows us to be humane instead of animal. I see the human race becoming more humane over time and believe there is a positive forward trend. I see quality education as the primary catalyst for this increase in humanity.

I believe that supernatural, superstitious, and mystical beliefs are all invented by humans. I believe there are very specific reasons that humans have evolved to believe these things:

1) The human brain is incredibly adept at making inferences. For example if we get sick after eating a mushroom we infer that the mushroom was responsible. It may or may not be true, but in the world of survival of the fittest, “better safe than sorry” is a good policy. Inferring incorrect and supernatural answers is just part of being human – we have to work very hard to overcome these natural inferences and confirmation bias.

As such I find the valuable essence of Christianity to be the teachings such as “love they neighbor as thyself. Who then is my neighbor…”, Paraphrasing … the greatest commandment is love, etc. Unfortunately I see organized Christianity more as as a vehicle for the opposite in so many cases…

2) There was a point in human history that working effectively in a tribe or other social unit was the primary indicator of survival. The social aspect of human survival is huge (also true with primates, but even more so with humans who have the capacity to specialize.) The ability to identify with, believe what the tribe believes, and follow a charismatic leader or cause was at one point a huge survival advantage.

Also as a father, both when I was TBM and now as I identify myself as a atheist I have considered this to be my primary inspiration for what is most important to me:

My child arrived just the other day

He came to the world in the usual way

But there were planes to catch and bills to pay

He learned to walk while I was away

And he was talkin’ ‘fore I knew it, and as he grew

He’d say “I’m gonna be like you dad

You know I’m gonna be like you”

And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon

Little boy blue and the man on the moon

When you comin’ home dad?

I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son

You know we’ll have a good time then

My son turned ten just the other day

He said, “Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let’s play

Can you teach me to throw”, I said “Not today

I got a lot to do”, he said, “That’s ok”

And he walked away but his smile never dimmed

And said, “I’m gonna be like him, yeah

You know I’m gonna be like him”

And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon

Little boy blue and the man on the moon

When you comin’ home son?

I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son

You know we’ll have a good time then

Well, he came home from college just the other day

So much like a man I just had to say

“Son, I’m proud of you, can you sit for a while?”

He shook his head and said with a smile

“What I’d really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys

See you later, can I have them please?”

And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon

Little boy blue and the man on the moon

When you comin’ home son?

I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son

You know we’ll have a good time then

I’ve long since retired, my son’s moved away

I called him up just the other day

I said, “I’d like to see you if you don’t mind”

He said, “I’d love to, Dad, if I can find the time

You see my new job’s a hassle and kids have the flu

But it’s sure nice talking to you, Dad

It’s been sure nice talking to you”

And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me

He’d grown up just like me

My boy was just like me

And the cat’s in the cradle and the silver spoon

Little boy blue and the man on the moon

When you comin’ home son?

I don’t know when, but we’ll get together then son

You know we’ll have a good time then

---

Other thoughts about spirituality that I’ve seen that I like:

Spirituality is a connection of some kind to something bigger than yourself. Be it the world, humanity, God, etc. It’s finding a meaning and a connection bigger than just you. There is a lot of evidence that such a connection is one of the primary keys to happiness.

Spirituality is the ability to rise about one’s fears and live in the present in such a way that you everyone around you wins.

Note: Eastern religions seem to have a lot of interesting spiritual concepts that may have deep meaning to you. I know very little about them personally but have seen a lot of people who speak highly of them.

[Anonymous]

ElCid, there is a good discussion going on in another thread about the “Middle Way”, much of which we don’t need to rehash here, just add to that topic on that thread if you wish to discuss what the “Middle Way” is or is not. (see http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3249” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3249)

But to your point and to provide support based on your post, I think you are going through what so many do, which is embarking on that journey of what you truly believe and what you want to do. It no longer sustains it for you to just do it because you should, or because you’re told it will make you happier. You need to decide what you really want to do and why.

ElCid wrote:

I used to think I was somewhat of a spiritual person but now I feel no interest in reading scriptures, praying or even discussing religion as a topic of discussion.

Remember, spirituality is not limited to mormon scriptures or mormon styles of prayer, or mormon religious topics. I hate to break it to you, but I think you’re still a spiritual person…because you’re still in these forums discussing spiritual matters. Maybe it is time for you to experience spirituality in greater ways then limiting it to what you’ve always done in the past that doesn’t seem to be working for you anymore.

For me, when I felt this way, I decided to hold on to those things I like about my faith, and then seek to add new things and new perspectives to it. Not throw out the baby with the bathwater, but journey on to find what works for me.

If you haven’t read the “Why Stay” essay recently, maybe you want to revisit it. There are some good sections that talk about why some people get exhausted and need a break. That is OK to let yourself do that when needed.

I have found that was great for a while, but not a sustainable way for me, as I want to jump back into church and service and religion, but with my new “set of eyes”. Not everyone does that, or wants to get back involved in church, and that is OK too. We go through these phases, and I do believe God knows our heart, and will allow us to learn if we allow ourselves to seek.

I like to use Alma 30 as the example of allowing yourself to try things, to see what feels good in your life, and what things don’t seem to grow and you can cast them out:

Quote:

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

[Anonymous]

Is there a middle way, really?

Yes. For some people. Not for everyone. There’s nothing really wrong with you per se if you don’t click with some form of middle-way. While I personally like the use of the term “middle-way” in a lot of ways as a label, Ray often points out that it really isn’t a single path. They are all “individual ways.”

What is your way?

Based on your post, it sounds to me like you aren’t quite done blasting away the dead wood and cracked foundations. It sounds like you are doing a lot to step back and evaluate things. That’s great! You are finding out that things you used to think were important aren’t so much anymore. You are telling us about a few things that still seem important (family relationships, etc.). You might not quite be done deconstructing it all yet though.

It seems like people turn the next corner after a longer period of feeling blah, and like their world has been deconstructed too much, too much rubble and chaos, too little meaning and lack of flavor, too much shades of grey like dust after an explosion of black vs. white. This isn’t something we just think about. It has to be lived. It has to permeate deeply into our core.

I think that is when a lot of people feel like they want to look for some spice and magic back in their life again.

[Anonymous]

ElCid,

I wasn’t there when my kids married in the temple. Honestly, it was one of the suckiest parts of all this for me. But some things that helped… I came to a point where I could not in good conscience, go to the temple, because I didn’t believe. I tried to help my kids understand that, and not only did they, but they were supportive. They went out of their way to help me feel OK with my decision, and I went out of my way not to blame anyone, or anything, or to complain that I couldn’t go. I made sure it didn’t come across like I just didn’t care enough. That would have been a slap in the face, for my kids. It was a conscious, painful decision, and I told them I wish it were otherwise, and that I wished I could go. I was open to them about the fact that I’m no longer a believer, but also never let that get into a discussion, let alone an argument, about why.

It’s natural for your son and your wife to express a desire for you to be present when he marries in the temple, but it probably is an indicator that you need to be a little more clear about your situation with them… at least that’s what happened to me… my wife would occasionally make comments about how she perceived my situation, and I realized that I wasn’t being open and honest with her, so I opened up a little, and it’s been helpful, both for my own mental state, and for our relationship.

[Anonymous]

Thanks. I didn’t realize there was another thread with the exact same topic. I just finished reading all of the posts and I will post there.

Thanks for your comments here.

[Anonymous]

Personally, I pray every day that there is a “middle way,” wighin mormonism, and that one day the church will acknowledge it and accept the path that I have chosen.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[Anonymous]

“There must needs be opposition in all things.” Therefore, by definition, every way is “a” middle way – a way between opposites.

When we talk in extreme terms, migrating to an extreme (any extreme), we lose recognition and understanding of the other extreme which must needs be. We become incomplete due simply to being pulled to an extreme. We move from a balanced “way in the middle” from which we can see, evaluate and internalize things from all directions and incorporate anything that rings true for us to a more restricted, unbalanced way from which many things vanish from sight.

Ironically, things look clearer as we become unbalanced, but it’s because we are able to see and contemplate LESS than we could in the middle.

I talk of “the muddle in the middle” for two reasons:

1) There is more through which to sift, making the glass through which we see mistier / darker / less clear;

2) Slowing down in order to muddle through everything keeps us from jumping to conclusions about the meaning of what we see – which, ironically, in the end, makes our ultimate decisions more fully ours. True growth and progress, imo and ime, occur from the need to sort through much and make informed decisions – not from seeing only one option and pursuing it unwaveringly.

That, btw, is a decent, alternate definition of faith.

[Anonymous]

ElCid wrote:

I used to think I was somewhat of a spiritual person but now I feel no interest in reading scriptures, praying or even discussing religion as a topic of discussion. Where before the motivation was so much about “doing” so as to ensure a place with God that now when I hear “we must do all that we can to get into the celestial kingdom”, it seems like so much displaced effort.

Totally normal. I felt this way long before I became disaffected. The correlated church material isn’t terribly stimulating, and even less so for intellectuals. That’s just kind of the nature of the beast when you are creating material for a world wide church with differing education levels, etc. I think that it is important to have regular spiritual nourishment, but simply reading scriptures every day out of a sense of obligation without ever actually feeling nourished kind of defeats the purpose. I like to take breaks and substitute my scripture study with other books. I have found a lot of enlightenment from Eastern religions. The Dhammapada, Bhagavadgita, and Tao Te Ching are great places to start. And they are not terribly long.

[Anonymous]

bc_pg wrote:

Revelation 3

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

the one place in scripture that rejects middle ground, supposedly, right?

what was the context? does this “proof text” mean what people think it means? is it really talking about “middle ground” or rather, indifference?

the middle way i subscribe to is by no means indifferent. one must decisively establish what one believes, and be confident enough in it so as to not be bothered by others’ beliefs. this is not lukewarm.

if you are an independent voter, and carefully vote based upon issues and what you feel to be right, does this mean you are indifferent? lukewarm?

i believe the middle way is to objectively seek the truth in things, recognizing that truth has many dimensions. that a myth is not literally true does not mean it does not contain moral truth.

[Anonymous]

Well said wayfarer

[Anonymous]

First of all thanks everyone for their input to my post. I honestly did not know about the term “middle way” before I made it the name of the topic. I’m just honestly too new to all this to even have known about it. I’m also not far along on my own personal journey either. I am still in the stage of shock/fear about coming to grips with something that I have been practicing most of my life and now seriously doubting just about everything in my life.

Brian, I appreciate your words. You are right. I am stepping back and re-evaluating everything. The first step was to just stop attending meetings and accepting callings. The disaffection was just too great. For example, our HP group gets emails regarding the Sunday lessons. This Sunday’s lesson? – Chapter 12: An Enthusiastic Desire to Share the Gospel. I just can’t, won’t sit through this anymore. At best I would just sit there politely and at worst it would just build up anger inside of me, so why even bother to go? Anyway, that is where I am at.

I’m not ready to shut the door yet. There are just too many feelings about how much time I have put into the church. Of course there is also my wife and my family. I don’t want to cause them the sorrow and pain and I just don’t know right now how to even approach it. I have spoken with my wife about this and thankfully she is very supportive. I think she believes that I will come back after “my break”, but I know that things have changed for me. I really cannot ever go back to what I was before. I guess that is why I asked the question about “middle way” and if there was a way to be an unbeliever in a church that demands rigid compliance.

On own now – can I ask you what was the aftermath of you not attending the temple wedding? How has your relationship with your kids after that event? My wife brought up the subject to my son on a visit with him at BYU just to “float” it out there and he was very hurt by the idea of his father not being in attendance. The thought of him being hurt like this just about killed me.

Right now I just feel like I will do anything to not hurt my kids. I will answer “yes” to any of the questions, attend the temple and put on a happy face. My wife has suggested for me to hang on until after he is married and then decide (btw, he has no steady girlfriend yet).

Thanks again for all of your comments. I can just tell you right now that I am not in a happy place. If it wasn’t for my family I believe I could just walk away. I don’t want to remove my membership. I don’t feel hate or anger for the church. Maybe someday I can reach a place where some on this forum are – at peace with their mormonism. Right now I am far from it.

[Anonymous]

ElCid… I sent you a private message to followup on those more personal lines.

[Anonymous]

ElCid wrote:

I can just tell you right now that I am not in a happy place. If it wasn’t for my family I believe I could just walk away. I don’t want to remove my membership. I don’t feel hate or anger for the church. Maybe someday I can reach a place where some on this forum are – at peace with their mormonism. Right now I am far from it.

I feel for you. There are no decisions before you that don’t hurt. I know that things work very differently for different people but one thing that has helped for me is to do what I call “supplement my spirituality.” I do this by reading choice books or even attending different church services. Books that I have liked include The Shack, Believe in Christ, The Peacegiver, and Love Wins. I know there are many more that others here have recommended. Even though our journeys are different – they are also the same, you are not alone.

[Author]

Posts