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DarkJedi wrote:
My called son is going to be part of the
“My Plan”thing as well. DJ…I don’t know anything about this. Please start a new thread and lets discuss….
Rob4Hope wrote:DarkJedi wrote:My called son is going to be part of the
“My Plan”thing as well. DJ…I don’t know anything about this. Please start a new thread and lets discuss….
R4H, Here’s a link to the thread that was started not too long ago about the ‘My Plan’ program:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6783 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6783 Thanks HC. I’ve read up on it and have an idea what it is. It feels like “another program”….again.
On my mission, I had 3 discussions: ones memorized, which I did BEFORE I went to the MTC; ones taught us in the MTC that were given to us in paper printed from a copy machine, eventually put into a spiral folder; and finally ones that were more like what there is today. I never new what was what.
In the MTC we were taught that the worst use of time was actually tracting: it didn’t produce results. But, when out in the mission field, the MP was opposed to member work, and insisted that we tract for 8-10 hours a day.
It was a shake down of the maximum degree. We were not allowed to leave our apartment without our “whites” on, and everywhere we went, we were targets of ridicule. It was mission policy to have breakfast, and a single “brunch” about 2:00 PM,..but we were to be out working from 9:00 AM till 2:00 PM,…and from 3:00 PM until 9:00 PM each night. Being in the apartment and not out working was SERIOUSLY frowned on. We could in reality tract 10 hours a day. Sunday we were to follow the same schedule, with the exception of 3 hours in church.
The biggest challenge was the ability to “unwind” was taken away. Lots of missionaries came home from this mission damaged. They were nervous wrecks,..and some were severely traumatized from this.
The GAs told our MP and the APs at the time that we were the strictest mission in the entire world at that time. All letters were proscribed, all music was controlled, all member visits were controlled, and tight control was maintained. It felt like I was in prison for most of my time there. But I tried,…I really tried.
When any type of coercion is used to control, like shame for example, it is always bad. ALWAYS! Shame was used in my mission to control many of the missionaries. Those who struggled were reminded of their commitment to God, that they were called by a prophet, and that the reason they were struggling was because they were not measuring up and keeping all of the mission rules. IN so many ways, they were told they didn’t have enough faith.
That was my experience under the first MP. The second one did loosen things up a little and was more compassionate…but the changes were VERY slow.
Several missionaries came home and were never the same. The ones I know about left the church. Hunh…I wonder why.
Duh!
PS. Oh, I have a parenthetical comment that is hilarious. The mission planned a “sacrifice month”. We were going to “show the Lord our faith and call down His blessings.” So, during that month, we cut 15 min off our brunch and were only to take 45 min for that second meal (dinner wasn’t allowed,..I’m not making this up). And, we were going to cut 4 hours off P-Day and tract and work that time as well. As expected, during that month, baptisms sored…everyone was so happy. And, during the next 6 months, the baptism rate sank so low that the overall statistic for the entire mission suffered.
Philip T. Sontag (who was the GA at the time) found out what happened and got angry about it. He told the MP: “They are working hard enough…you don’t need to try to KILL THEM!”
I asked in a ZC a question to Elder Sontagg…”What does the Lord think about our efforts?” He said that he thinks the Lord is not pleased. Why?…because we sure work hard, but we don’t work very smart or by the spirit. I understood his counsel, but we weren’t the ones who got to make the changes,…the MP and APs told us what to do, and we did it. We didn’t want to be “slackers” and “slothful” servants.
I don’t ever want to serve a mission again….and I feel absolute sorrow for those who do. Compassion and kindness cease to exist when you place yourself inside the clutches of Gods servants on earth who follow Satan’s plan so very well.
I suppose it could be noted here that none of the current FP served missions, nor did the next two in line to be president, Nelson and Oaks. Hales also did not serve. Packer didn’t serve but Perry did and also served in the military. It is the tendency to try to make it look as though all those who didn’t serve didn’t do so because of military obligations. A careful examination reveals otherwise – many of them (maybe all of them) could have anyway but didn’t. Those wars didn’t last forever. As one who served in the military, served a mission, and went to college, I bear you my witness that it is possible. Rob4Hope wrote:I don’t ever want to serve a mission again….and I feel absolute sorrow for those who do. Compassion and kindness cease to exist when you place yourself inside the clutches of Gods servants on earth who follow Satan’s plan so very well.
Rob, I can’t blame you for not ever wanting to be involved in something like that again or for your feeling of sorrow toward those who do. That’s a tough situation, and I’m sorry you had to endure it. It must have been very difficult to get past that kind of experience. All I can say is that it’s not that way for lots of people.FWIW, I have told all my kids who have gone out that they didn’t need the MP’s permission to leave or to call me. If they ever felt like they couldn’t do it, they should call me directly and we’d figure out how to get them home. I stressed to them that there was no obligation stated or implied for them to serve or to stay to the end, and that I’d love them the same no matter how it turned out. Apparently, I put a little too much emphasis on it, because one of them said, confused, “So, is there some reason why you don’t think I’ll be able to do it?”… “No,” I said, “I think you are totally capable and better suited for it than anyone your age I know, but I just want you to know that your service as a missionary doesn’t change my love for you.” I think he was still a little annoyed.
On Own Now wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:I don’t ever want to serve a mission again….and I feel absolute sorrow for those who do. Compassion and kindness cease to exist when you place yourself inside the clutches of Gods servants on earth who follow Satan’s plan so very well.
Rob, I can’t blame you for not ever wanting to be involved in something like that again or for your feeling of sorrow toward those who do. That’s a tough situation, and I’m sorry you had to endure it. It must have been very difficult to get past that kind of experience. All I can say is that it’s not that way for lots of people.FWIW, I have told all my kids who have gone out that they didn’t need the MP’s permission to leave or to call me. If they ever felt like they couldn’t do it, they should call me directly and we’d figure out how to get them home. I stressed to them that there was no obligation stated or implied for them to serve or to stay to the end, and that I’d love them the same no matter how it turned out. Apparently, I put a little too much emphasis on it, because one of them said, confused, “So, is there some reason why you don’t think I’ll be able to do it?”… “No,” I said, “I think you are totally capable and better suited for it than anyone your age I know, but I just want you to know that your service as a missionary doesn’t change my love for you.” I think he was still a little annoyed.
OOO, your message is VERY compassionate to me. And, I love your approach with your children. It must be remembered that service in the church is voluntary. But, it makes no sense to me that young people, while on missions, are forbidden and even blocked and reprimanded for possibly calling home.
I think the church forbids the missionaries to call home because they don’t want to do anything that will create home sickness–they want to cut the apron strings as it were. BUT, part of what I don’t agree with is the support network is also cut, making the church the only resource, and it also makes the church the sole source of authority as it were.
On my mission, my passport was taken from me and kept in a locked desk in the MP Office. I had to go through him to get out if I wanted. I had control of my money, and so I had options, but not many. It makes sense, from my son’s perspective, that missionaries are treated with great trust, but are not allowed to be trustworthy. We can be out there working with people’s souls–literally as ambassadresses of JC, but we are not responsible enough to take care of our own passports?
When my son was on his mission and was getting ready to leave it, it took serious activities on our side (his parent’s side) to gain the ability to contact him. He had no phone, had no access to one because he was required to use a cell phone controlled by some senior missionaries, and we had to contact the mission office and DEMAND access to speak to him. Finally, it was granted, but at that point, it was too late.
My feelings have calmed a lot since my own mission, and since my FC is winding down, I am feeling less angst. But, every now and then (like today), it comes out with vengence still.
Rob4Hope wrote:On my mission, my passport was taken from me and kept in a locked desk in the MP Office. I had to go through him to get out if I wanted. I had control of my money, and so I had options, but not many. It makes sense, from my son’s perspective, that missionaries are treated with great trust, but are not allowed to be trustworthy. We can be out there working with people’s souls–literally as ambassadresses of JC, but we are not responsible enough to take care of our own passports?
I was also on a mission where they kept the passports locked away. What I feel to be the true reason for this policy quickly became clear. Our apartment was broken into and robbed five times. We were also shaken down in the streets once. If I had my passport anywhere on my person or even back at the apartment it would have eventually been lost or stolen. The policy existed to keep our passports safe. We could still go home if we wanted, some did. I have no doubt that the ones that left were subject to many people attempting to convince them to stay but they were allowed to leave.
I wish I had those two years back. In many ways the restrictive culture of a mission affected me negatively for many years after. It pushed me into an extremely conservative personality that hindered my development. Personally I think it is unfortunate that we throw young people into this culture, at an age they should be maturing and exploring life
I’d think if you are fortunate to learn a language and visit a new culture it enhances your mission. I served one state away 600 miles from home. It just seemed like I was working in my own neighborhood. It was two years of mostly guilt and anguish.
Cadence, how did it push you into a conservative personality? Were you as logical minded back then? Mine was good overall. It was where I learned I can be a passionate leader, speak to inspire people, and approach leadership with a good heart. I had many spiritual experiences and a mission president who put me with companions who helped me learn to be less of an introvert when I needed to be extroverted (I can turn it off and on now as needed as a result). It was there that I got self-esteem counseling and it was very helpful — still helpful now that I am a mature adult and don’t need it to feel good about myself most of the time. Although preparing to leave was very hard, I did learn to set financial goals and save with the help of a retired executive in my Ward who helped me. And for a couple decades, I really respected myself that I went. I have forgotten how many people I was involved with baptizing, but I was about average — and it wasn’t atypical to come home having been involved in the baptisms of 35 people or so. So, it was not a faith-damaging experience to be on a mission.
I now believe it was not the only way to grow as a person. I might have grown in other ways with different experiences (work-related, or service-related), but it was a good way to learn to be a leader, to face adversity. I certainly learned how to be a district sales manager as a DL and ZL, and I have used the sales skills you have to show as a missionary over and over again in work and community-service contexts. I am glad I went, although I think the experience would have been more positive if my stake president had not made me stay home until I paid for it all when I was a convert with no family support at home. That left a really bad taste in my mouth which shaped the church attitudes I hold today — and the egocentricity I see all around me, regularly.
I think your story about how the counselor says s/he plugs holes left in people’s emotional health from missions and bishops who screw up is very telling.
One thing I HAVE learned from my church experience is that the church will often put you up to very low value-added service opportunities. And in my view, because there is no cost to the church. Sending YM to an area where the probability of success is almost nil, when they could be placing missionaries in other areas where they can see success is egocentric to the church. If every missionary who comes home without a baptism costs the church $10,000, would they put missionaries in low success areas? If every home teaching visit costs the church a $50 service call, would they be after us to visit every single less active person in the Ward? I think not.
I no longer let the church absorb my time with visiting less actives who have no intention of coming back, cleaning up the Ward records, or other activities that don’t have an impact — including proactive missionary work. I would even consider rejecting a Senior’s mission call if I was sent to serving a mission in an area where I would face nothing but rejection 24/7. There are far too many human needs and ways you can make a contribution to society that have a strong, spiritual/temporal return on Investment to let the church waste my time and talent on service opportunities for which I have no passion, and only a low probability of success.
Heber13 wrote:Cadence, how did it push you into a conservative personality? Were you as logical minded back then?
I have always been somewhat of a logical thinker, but mission culture made me extremely judgmental. Something I carried with me for years after. Maybe I would have been that way anyway, but a mission fueled and gave me reason to see others as less than myself. I think my judgmental attitude came from the guilt I carried for years. Not guilt of dong anything wrong but Mormon guilt of not doing enough. My mission so ingrained in me obedience above all else that I became blinded to anything to the contrary. It took years for that to break down and live a more balanced life.
I had a pretty decent mission I enjoyed it overall. Of course there were time that I didn’t. The most frustrating thing for me, was I had a Deaf companion at one point and we always felt left out just because of the language barrier. I did butt heads with leaders from time to time, but nothing too serious. My favorite story to tell is when I had bronchitis and it was time for the Christmas pageant and neither I or my companion (the Deaf one and it was going to be mostly musical stuff) wanted to go. So we decided not to go. Well her previous companion called us wanting to carpool and we told her we weren’t going. About 15 minutes later I get a call from the ZL “So Sister… I hear you’re not coming tonight?” “Nope I’m sick” (As I’m hacking up a lung). “Are you sure Sister we really want you there” “I’m pretty sure no one wants to hear me hack throughout the program” “Sister are you faking that cough?”. Yep he thought I was faking bronchitis to get out of the program. I finally convinced him I wasn’t and he understood why we didn’t want to go. Biggest challenge I struggled with was being too TBM and strict stage 3. I grew up ORTHODOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, when the GAs said have a certain number of baptisms a month, I knew that it was GOD’S WILL…and HE WOULD PREPARE THE WAY! I felt utterly damned because I didn’t measure up. I also felt like I was a target everywhere I went, because ridicule was rampant. It bothered me,..and I felt condemned because it did. Why couldn’t i just be more Christlike and suffer the scourges with more dignity and let it roll off me?
I was one of the most successful missionaries in the mission as far as numbers went,…but I felt utterly condemned and broken. If I had only tracted more. If I had only testified on the street corners. If I had only called down the powers of heaven more…
I have since learned in my own upbringing that “temperance” and “moderation” were missed topics. I also learned that the message in Robinson’s book “Believing Christ” was not something I was ever taught–I was taught that you earned your salvation, and that if you repent of your sins–ALL OF YOUR SINS–from that moment forward you have to live perfect. Because, if you re-offend, you really didn’t repent in the first place.
I was unprepared for a mission. I’m glad I went, but I never want to repeat the experience.
Rob4Hope wrote:If I had only tracted more. If I had only testified on the street corners. If I had only called down the powers of heaven more…
Yes, time to lose that thinking. Even JS tried to accomplish things, and had the saints work at it, and it didn’t come to fruition. To preserve his status as prophet, I believe he had to blame the non-success on the lack of righteousness on the part of the saints, or his own human frailties in the eyes of God. That has transformed into a cultural value that we hear a lot about with respect to missionary work – we didn’t baptize because we weren’t righteous enough. I also believe it’s in the BoM in missionary stories — that good things happen when people are righteous, and bad things happen when they don’t.
Also, did you know that a trait that is common among senior managers (who generally have a high level of emotional intelligence) is an EXTERNAL locus of control? Yep! They believe there is a lot that happens around them that has NOTHING to do with their own actions. As President Regan said — “in my position you go to bed at night knowing there is a LOT going on you know nothing about”. When you are trying to get people to commit their agency to the church, you are only 1/2 of the equation — in fact, less than 1/2. The other part is up to them, and you have very little control over it beyond a certain point.
Quote:Because, if you re-offend, you really didn’t repent in the first place.
I think that’s a dastardly thing to believe. Let’s take the person who is an alcoholic. That person has two years of utter soberness, and then backslides. He had TWO YEARS of sobriety, presumably healther family relationships, and self-control. To lead him to believe that all that was for naught is destructive and not conducive to change. It sounds motivating to the person who has never screwed up, but for the person who is trying and not succeeding, it’s destructive sacriledge in my view.
Quote:I’m glad I went, but I never want to repeat the experience.
I feel the same way. There is no way I could go on a Senior’s mission as a proselyter — it’s essentially a sales position with the Spirit to help you (unlike a sales position). I have had nightmares that I was back on my mission again as well. No, my retirement will be invested doing something my wife and I love to do. And if we can’t find something we both like, I’ll support her in some kind of local mission that doesn’t involve proselyting.
SilentDawning wrote:Quote:Because, if you re-offend, you really didn’t repent in the first place.
I think that’s a dastardly thing to believe. Let’s take the person who is an alcoholic. That person has two years of utter soberness, and then backslides. He had TWO YEARS of sobriety, presumably healther family relationships, and self-control. To lead him to believe that all that was for naught is destructive and not conducive to change. It sounds motivating to the person who has never screwed up, but for the person who is trying and not succeeding, it’s destructive sacriledge in my view.
I agree this is pure destruction…but in the TBM arena, it is very VERY common. This is off topic so I expect it to go no further, but if you are working with an addiction (for example), the only thing that matters is the length of time since your last “slip”. I’ve seen bishops throw the book at people who were doing their best, had a slip, and were declared “back in their addiction”. All the work they did before seems to somehow not matter, because “If they had really be working their program, they wouldn’t have slipped again.”
I have often marveled why people are considered only as good as their last mistake. No kidding. I’ve seen this in several places–no everywhere, but in many. Happens mostly when you hit the ultra orthodox TBM folks.
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