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God – you know my heart and my soul-wrenching attempts at asking you for help and I don’t understand why I didn’t get an answer. But you are God and either you are good and where I am going is the best place for me to be happy, or you are an immoral tyrant (See ruben’s discussion for WHY) and I can’t do anything about it. My answer is a quote from the Book of Mormon — Alma said that when non-members saw Corianton’s behavior they wouldn’t believe Alma’s words. I am in that boat. Find it hard to commit so much time and energy to a church whose leaders lack so much compassion and refuse to help when the chips are down. Or who permit abuse as they do. Not sexual, but maltreatment. Maltreatment so extreme you never see it in non-member situations, like my work. SilentDawning wrote:
Try not to question the premises as I don’t want to turn this into a murky debate about whether I even have the facts straight about judgment….this is how the average believer seems to interpret the judgment process, in my understanding.
This has been a good part of the exercise…suspending my level of doubt and the endless possibilities of what we don’t know…and just taking it as face value on this premise for the sake of discussion.SilentDawning wrote:
If god is just, do you think that he will consign good people, who are trying to be good citizens, good fathers, good people to a lower kingdom that is akin to, in Mormon philosophy, being damned?
I believe that is the exact definition of the 2nd kingdom, which is why we don’t believe in Heaven and Hell (only 2 kingdoms). There are the people in hell who are just bad people. The Hitlers of the world. The 2nd Kingdom of good people, good citizens and parents, but not living up to the covenants with god. Then the Celestial Kingdom for those that keep covenants with God. And of course, the 3 degrees within the CK, and the highest is for Joseph Smith and people like that.
Put another way…judgment is based on the relationship and trust. I may know my 15 year old son is really a good kid at heart, and he means well, and he even tries to make good choices. But…I still wouldn’t trust him to ride off on my motorcycle. He’d wreck it and could really hurt himself. Whether he means well or not…he simply isn’t skilled enough to do it. He never chose to take the time to practice and learn how to do it, so my judgment is that it is unsafe to give him the keys…even if I love him…even if he promises to try to be safe. It’s a trust issue. Judgment isn’t just about if I love him or not, it’s about what is being judged and what is on the line to be trusted with.
And I guess damnation would be…”we don’t have any more motorcycles…and so…you really don’t have an opportunity to learn it anymore. That time has passed. But…you can be a good son without a motorcycle. Just be the best you that you can be, and I still love you, son.”
What else is my son gonna do? Judgment is what it is. And I believe in the NT God more than an OT God…I believe he is just and loving, not angry or jealous or petty.
AmyJ wrote:
I see being “damned” as “be stopped in progression” the way that beavers build dams.
This is what is taught. I think the progression is becoming god-like. So…the dam stopping progression might be in some form, like if we can’t be married in the lower kingdoms and therefore can’t progress with a loving partner the way you could with a healthy partnership and build kingdoms and have offspring and grow and progress in those ways.
But…it would seem logical to me everyone keeps progressing in knowledge and learning. Hell would just be learning that you could have been a god if you chose to, and you didn’t, and you can’t be trusted with god-like powers, and now you have to learn to deal with it and make the most of it.
…ok…it is hard for me to suspend my disbelief on the way the afterlife is taught. But…that is the parameter of the thread, I guess.
I think most members believe it is more than just being a good person. It’s also what you do to progress and gain experience. We are not just saved by grace, we also work for our exaltation by showing God he can trust us. Judgment is about that.
Frankly, I don’t believe in formal judgment bar, so I have a hard time answering in any way other than what I said earlier. I don’t know what I would say, since I don’t know what God would be like if there is an actual court-like judgment. I think I will be shocked enough to say, “Whatever you say.”
“Lo there, they do call to me, and bid me take my place among them, in the halls of Valhalla, where the braveshall live forever.” You might not remember but I spent a lot of effort praying for you (all) to help me know if it was true. Let me now just toss this out: How do you do, Mr. Gatekeeper?
Jesus loves me more than you might know
Wo wo wo
God bless me please, Mr. Judgment Guy
Heaven holds a place for those who pray
Hey hey hey, what d’ya say?
According to our theology, we’ll end up where we’ll be most comfortable. The place we go will feel like a reward to us. I guess I would say “Terrestrial Kingdom? Awesome. Where do I put my bags?” hawkgrrrl wrote:
According to our theology, we’ll end up where we’ll be most comfortable. The place we go will feel like a reward to us. I guess I would say “Terrestrial Kingdom? Awesome. Where do I put my bags?”
For me, it’s “comfortable for how long?”. I just took an admin position and it was really exciting for about 6 months. I was in the right place. But now I’m comfortable in it, and know what I’m doing, as a result, it’s become routine. I’d rather be moving up to harder problems and bigger “stewardship”. To be stuck in the same position when you know there are better positions out there that challenge you and expand your skills would be madening for eternity.
I wish I knew for sure what awaits so I could prepare for it. I have such a darn hard time believing the church is all it says it is given the behavior I’ve seen from members, leaders, and the systems, and culture the leaders have put in place. It’s like Alma who said “When they (non members) saw your behavior they wouldn’t believe my words”.
I’ll just blame Trump.
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