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I admit I am lately sort of into this whole concept of scriptures and even doctrine being symbolic in nature. I guess mostly because it allows you to really adapt anything you want to your own personal needs. Also I think it is the only logical way to proceed when the evidence is so strong against a literal interpretation. The down side is when you start down this path less and less can you take literally. Eventually you get to the point where I am, believing everything is a story made up to answer a question or deal with a perceived problem. Maybe god has a hand it it but certainly not in the detail Mormons would claim or religions in general. So I do not take anything in the church literally. Not tithing, temple work, the atonement, the scriptures, really nothing. I see no reason to. Dogged adherence to literal teachings, ordinances and commandments never seemed to get me anywhere.
What do you still believe or take literally in the church?
Cadence wrote:…I do not take anything in the church literally. Not tithing, temple work, the atonement, the scriptures, really nothing. I see no reason to. Dogged adherence to literal teachings, ordinances and commandments never seemed to get me anywhere.
What do you still believe or take literally in the church?
I understand for some people how symbolic things can be important and possibly even more powerful than literal stories.
Some things I take (or hope) are literally true:
* That family is the most important thing in this life
* That we should love and serve others
* That we should be honest with others (and the 2nd half of the 10 commendments)
* That we are all brothers and sisters
* That I’ve experienced some spiritual things that I cannot explain or deny or attribute to chemistry in my brain.
I hope a bunch of things are literally true, for example the atonement.
Cadence wrote:I admit I am lately sort of into this whole concept of scriptures and even doctrine being symbolic in nature. I guess mostly because it allows you to really adapt anything you want to your own personal needs. Also I think it is the only logical way to proceed when the evidence is so strong against a literal interpretation. The down side is when you start down this path less and less can you take literally. Eventually you get to the point where I am, believing everything is a story made up to answer a question or deal with a perceived problem. Maybe god has a hand it it but certainly not in the detail Mormons would claim or religions in general.
So I do not take anything in the church literally. Not tithing, temple work, the atonement, the scriptures, really nothing. I see no reason to. Dogged adherence to literal teachings, ordinances and commandments never seemed to get me anywhere.
What do you still believe or take literally in the church?
I find it helpful to take what works and add it to my life. Although for most of my life I used to try to force things to work in the way I was told to force to get it to work in manner I was told it should.
That was draining, stressful and destructive beyond belief.
In trying to be more mentally healthy I now take what works and leave the rest.
I see no need to willing manipulate myself and my feelings any longer.
If it works it works, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. Bit it’s also worth note that at any time that can change based in new information and experience. If what hurts begins to help naturally or what helps begins to hurt.
Organic free flowing evolution of the conscious. Not self forced manipulation based on beliefs it teachings.
I pray I’m not seen as a heretic, but I can’t not go down the forced manipulation path of my feelings and experiences again.
It’s been to destructive. Taking what helps and leaving the test has been tremendously helpful in positive progression.
So that’s where the testing the fruit lies. I imagine it peoples experiences will be different based in their experiences and brain chemistry.
Long story short, it doesn’t matter in the end. I will not force either into myself if it doesn’t work. It can work any way or any degree it doesn’t have to be either or. Learning to be comfortable with not knowing and forcing belief in oneself. To be ok with any answer that gives another comfort.
First and foremost, that, if there is a God, all people who have lived are equal in his sight. That, biologically and spiritually, we all are brothers and sisters.
That love is the central principle of life.
That life is about progression, not just salvation.
That it is important to worship as a community.
There are more, but those are the first things that come to mind.
I am still trying to figure this out. My current approach is to accept it as literal if the evidence is convincing that it is. However, if the evidence is convincing that it’s not literal, then I cannot really accept it as such and keep my integrity intact. The only way to do so would be to believe that it is a test to see if I am faithful enough to believe doctrine over scientific evidence. The question I ask myself more often is, what if the evidence is inconclusive? When there is no evidence either way you could conjure up an infinite number of “theories”. I could “theorize” that each atom in the cells of my body is its own separate universe sustaining life and the people there are green. I could suggest that this universe is but an atom in a cell of the body of a much larger being. Currently, there’s not really any way to test these “theories”. So the next questions I ask myself are: Is there some benefit to believing this is literal? Is there some harm to believing this is literal? Is there some benefit to interpreting it as symbolic?
Cadence wrote:Maybe god has a hand it it but certainly not in the detail Mormons would claim or religions in general.
How many Mormons? Which ones? I think more church members have their own ideas than we are able to understand. There is the line of thought that is most publicly accepted and voiced, but I have come to realize that does not accurately reflect the thoughts of Mormons in totality.
Quote:We humans sure do love our words. We read. We write. We chatter with friends and family. If things get too quiet, we’ll turn on the radio or TV to hear others talk. Even inside our own heads, we seem to keep a constant monologue going.
Yet words often fall short when we try to describe deeply personal, emotional experiences. There are times when something feels very close to the heart, perhaps even mystical or sacred. It might be a dream that lingers in memory, a powerful image that pops into your mind, or a song that brings an unexpected burst of tears. Words just can’t capture exactly what these experiences mean to us. We seem to be picking up some deeper meaning, something symbolic that points the soul beyond the limits of human language.
How can we make the most of what these symbols have to offer us? Here are 5 suggestions.
1) Pay attention. First, we need to notice ideas that come to us in symbolic forms. If you see, hear, or sense something unexpected that stirs your emotions, allow yourself to really notice it, rather than rushing past the experience. Or if you’ve just awakened from a vivid dream, give yourself a few moments to recall it. It will be easier to glean meaning from symbolic messages if we open ourselves to their potential importance and pay attention.
2) Savor the experience. When we encounter a symbol, there can be a sense of pressure to figure out exactly what it means…and right away! But there’s much to be said for giving yourself some time to experience the symbol in the moment. If it’s a song, listen a few times and let it sink in. If it’s an image, take some time to gaze. You may find it useful to jot down some thoughts and feelings in response to your symbol. It’s possible that you will have a clear sense of what the symbol means to you in the present moment. But this might not happen, and that’s OK.
3) Reflect–but don’t dissect. When confronted with a powerful symbol, the analytical, verbal part of our brain may leap to action: “Here’s something interesting and important, but I don’t understand it. So I need to figure it out.” After some initial reflection on our thoughts and feelings, some of us are quick to push further. We don’t just reflect on the experience, we dissect it. We open the whole thing for scrutiny, and we inspect every little piece to see what leads to what. We use lots of words in an attempt to pin things down: “This means this” and “that means that.” Although we can gain valuable insights through such a process, it’s possible to go overboard with analysis. And when we overanalyze a symbolic experience, especially early on, we may unintentionally strip the symbol of its power. If we don’t use a gentle, patient touch, the symbol may lose its emotional impact. In short, we may feel as though we’ve analyzed it to death.
4) Expect many layers. It can be tempting to search for a single, literal interpretation of a symbol. Yet one of the most powerful aspects of symbols is that they often hold many layers of meaning. Different layers may be relevant to our lives at different times. By forcing a single interpretation, we may cut the process short by stopping at an outer layer, thinking that this is all that the symbol has to offer.
There seems to be a certain humility in recognizing that we may never fully understand a symbol in a complete and thorough way, one that allows us to check it off the list and fully explain its total meaning. If it could all be captured in words, would we really need the symbol?
5) Use reminders. I’ve filled my home office with reminders that have symbolic meaning for me. As I look around the room now, I see a flowering tree with birds, a rug featuring pictures of ripe fruit, and a scrapbook with images of big-wave surfing. I also see representations of animals: a sea turtle, a butterfly, a camel. And not everything is visually oriented: Some CDs and scented candles carry symbolic meaning for me as well. I chose these items for my office intentionally, to remind me of certain ideas or insights that don’t fit neatly into words.
After this reflection, I’m still not 100% sure why “More than Words” has been running through my head. One thing, at least, seems clear: This experience has given me something that feels fresh and personal to share with you this month. And I’m still enjoying the melody, which even now continues to echo in my mind. I trust that if this song holds more layers of meaning that are important for my life, I’ll discover them when the time is right.
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/light-and-shadow/201305/more-words-five-ways-unleash-the-power-symbols ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/light-and-shadow/201305/more-words-five-ways-unleash-the-power-symbols Quote:When questioned about the backlash that may result from the planned Quran burning, the Rev Terry Jones pointed out that he was only burning a book. He was not killing anyone. This was a curious response. If burning a book was not that big of a deal, then it would not have been much of a stand against Islam, and thus not really worth doing. I suspect Rev Jones understands the power of symbols. He clearly wanted to make a potent statement. It does pose the question though: Why are we so protective of symbols?
Many philosophers, anthropologists, sociologists, and psychologists have pointed out that humans are uniquely symbolic creatures. We are chained to a physical reality, like all other animals. But we also have the capacity for imaginative and symbolic thought. The anthropologist Ernest Becker nicely illustrated this with the example of water. Water is part of the physical world and a critical component of our physical existence. But humans are the only animals that symbolize water (as H20) and, critically, the only animals that magically empower water (by blessing it and making it holy).
Look at the diverse tapestry of human cultural life. We go to great lengths to fashion a symbolic world. If you don’t believe in the power of symbols, try attending a local sporting event wearing the jersey of a rival team. In certain places, this little experiment could be a rather painful lesson in how important the symbolic world is to humans.
But the question is still unanswered. Why is the symbolic world so important to us? Many scholars have argued that the symbolic world is critical to humans because we are smart enough to fully understand the implications of being physical beings. We understand that life is fragile, we often have little control over it (e.g., I could be hit by a bus tomorrow or a tumor could be growing in me right now), and, critically, it is finite. However, the same advanced intellect that allows us to contemplate the grim reality of physical existence also allows us to construct a symbolic world.
With the construction of a symbolic world we can ease the pain of understanding our physical limitations; that we are merely, as Becker asserted, worms and food for worms. That is, we create a cultural world of meaning in which humans are not merely animals, but are symbolic entities. We are part of something larger and more enduring than our physical existence. In other words, in the symbolic world we can be immortal. Each of us will die, maybe even tomorrow, but our religions will live on. Our nations will live on. Even our favorite sports teams will live on. If we are lucky, our names may even live on through enduring societal contributions. In short, we invest heavily in the symbolic cultural institutions and identifications, in part, because they help insulate us from basic fears about our mortal predicament.
As discussed in some of my previous posts, there is a very large body of empirical research in support of this basic position. When people are reminded of health vulnerabilities and physical limitations, they cling to the symbolic world (e.g., become more religious and patriotic, engage in efforts to feel more socially significant).
Returning to the specific issues of the Quran burning, in 1995 Jeff Greenberg, a professor of psychology at the University of Arizona, and colleagues published a series of experiments testing specifically this idea that cultural symbols are important because they help us cope with our awareness of physical vulnerability. In these experiments, participants completed some questionnaires that they were told measured personality. In one of these measures, they were asked to write down their thoughts about death or a control topic (a non-death related topic). Then they were given a problem-solving task. Successful completion of the task required the inappropriate use of a cultural symbol. For example, in one task, participants had to hang a picture on the wall but the only object in the room that could be used to hammer in the nail was a crucifix. Participants who had previously been asked to write about death took longer to resort to using the crucifix as a hammer than participants who did not write about death. These participants also tried to come up with more alternative means of hanging the picture and expressed more reluctance about using the crucifix in that manner. In another study, similar findings were observed when participants had to damage an American flag to resolve the presented problem.
Cultural symbols provide psychological security. And when we feel insecure, we are more sensitive about these symbols. Thus, it is not surprising that when someone threatens these symbols, the people who value them take offense. This was the goal of Rev Jones. He wanted to take a symbolic stance against Islam. The problem is that too often wars fought in the symbolic world bleed over into the physical world, and real lives are lost.
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/death-love-sex-magic/201009/the-power-symbolism-why-burning-the-quran-is-disturbing ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/death-love-sex-magic/201009/the-power-symbolism-why-burning-the-quran-is-disturbing But I want to say Cadence that it is not usual to not be e ruin ally attached to various kinds if symbols. In particular religious symbols bear particular importance to those that realize their own mortality and fear it even on a subconscious level they may not be aware of.
I first thought something was very wrong with when I didn’t connect to various symbols or made no sense to me.
I began to wonder if I had an amyloid may all with which to relate to others.
After years of searching and testing and observing myself and studying. I have come to realize it’s really just religious symbols that have no impact on me. And that that is not abnormal for people who don’t fear death or there own mortality.
But just because someone else’s symbol didn’t register to me doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter or matter to others.
Partaking if the sacrament for example does nothing for me, emotionally. But I still do it out of respect because I realize it’s important to many and I don’t want to offend.
Like wise the cross means nothing to me, neither the iron rod.
But again, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t help others who see power in it through there emotions.
Make no mistake, symbols are all about emotional connection.
The only problem with symbols is that it cuts both ways. Ones persons hopes is another’s fears.
What makes a connection with one person will not with another.
So the only real danger with symbols is when someone declares their symbol to be more important then another.
Or tries to declare their symbol to be “truer” or more significant.
Or tries to deemphasize the importance if someone’s symbol and replace it with another, effectively reprogramming them and making their life without worth or self esteem as a result(usually fine to subordinate people).
But a symbol in its own right to connect with our inner most desires and fears is an expression.
One which comes on a very individual level and shouldn’t be changed from that to.
What symbol is helpful to one can even destroy another.
Nations use Symbols to shape public opinion and policy, advertisement uses it to sway emotions to their brand.
The power of Symbols. It’s a individual thing. With no true meaning except that which it means to the individual.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Quote:We humans sure do love our words. We read. We write. We chatter with friends and family. If things get too quiet, we’ll turn on the radio or TV to hear others talk. Even inside our own heads, we seem to keep a constant monologue going.
Yet words often fall short when we try to describe deeply personal, emotional experiences. There are times when something feels very close to the heart, perhaps even mystical or sacred. It might be a dream that lingers in memory, a powerful image that pops into your mind, or a song that brings an unexpected burst of tears. Words just can’t capture exactly what these experiences mean to us. We seem to be picking up some deeper meaning, something symbolic that points the soul beyond the limits of human language.
How can we make the most of what these symbols have to offer us? Here are 5 suggestions.
1) Pay attention. First, we need to notice ideas that come to us in symbolic forms. If you see, hear, or sense something unexpected that stirs your emotions, allow yourself to really notice it, rather than rushing past the experience. Or if you’ve just awakened from a vivid dream, give yourself a few moments to recall it. It will be easier to glean meaning from symbolic messages if we open ourselves to their potential importance and pay attention.
2) Savor the experience. When we encounter a symbol, there can be a sense of pressure to figure out exactly what it means…and right away! But there’s much to be said for giving yourself some time to experience the symbol in the moment. If it’s a song, listen a few times and let it sink in. If it’s an image, take some time to gaze. You may find it useful to jot down some thoughts and feelings in response to your symbol. It’s possible that you will have a clear sense of what the symbol means to you in the present moment. But this might not happen, and that’s OK.
3) Reflect–but don’t dissect. When confronted with a powerful symbol, the analytical, verbal part of our brain may leap to action: “Here’s something interesting and important, but I don’t understand it. So I need to figure it out.” After some initial reflection on our thoughts and feelings, some of us are quick to push further. We don’t just reflect on the experience, we dissect it. We open the whole thing for scrutiny, and we inspect every little piece to see what leads to what. We use lots of words in an attempt to pin things down: “This means this” and “that means that.” Although we can gain valuable insights through such a process, it’s possible to go overboard with analysis. And when we overanalyze a symbolic experience, especially early on, we may unintentionally strip the symbol of its power. If we don’t use a gentle, patient touch, the symbol may lose its emotional impact. In short, we may feel as though we’ve analyzed it to death.
4) Expect many layers. It can be tempting to search for a single, literal interpretation of a symbol. Yet one of the most powerful aspects of symbols is that they often hold many layers of meaning. Different layers may be relevant to our lives at different times. By forcing a single interpretation, we may cut the process short by stopping at an outer layer, thinking that this is all that the symbol has to offer.
There seems to be a certain humility in recognizing that we may never fully understand a symbol in a complete and thorough way, one that allows us to check it off the list and fully explain its total meaning. If it could all be captured in words, would we really need the symbol?
5) Use reminders. I’ve filled my home office with reminders that have symbolic meaning for me. As I look around the room now, I see a flowering tree with birds, a rug featuring pictures of ripe fruit, and a scrapbook with images of big-wave surfing. I also see representations of animals: a sea turtle, a butterfly, a camel. And not everything is visually oriented: Some CDs and scented candles carry symbolic meaning for me as well. I chose these items for my office intentionally, to remind me of certain ideas or insights that don’t fit neatly into words.
After this reflection, I’m still not 100% sure why “More than Words” has been running through my head. One thing, at least, seems clear: This experience has given me something that feels fresh and personal to share with you this month. And I’m still enjoying the melody, which even now continues to echo in my mind. I trust that if this song holds more layers of meaning that are important for my life, I’ll discover them when the time is right.
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/light-and-shadow/201305/more-words-five-ways-unleash-the-power-symbols ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/light-and-shadow/201305/more-words-five-ways-unleash-the-power-symbols Great advice, especially for some of our recent discussions. It would be good advice to offer in a temple prep course as well.
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Why are we so protective of symbols?
Because we identify with them. They are the lens through which we see the world. Sometimes we confuse the symbol with what it represents. The word, tree, is not a tree; a map is not the territory. It IS easy to become overly attached to symbols. I think this happens a lot, and not only in religion. It is one of the causes of division between people of different traditions, even though the symbols often represent similar values and ideas.
Curtis wrote:First and foremost, that, if there is a God, all people who have lived are equal in his sight.
That, biologically and spiritually, we all are brothers and sisters.
That love is the central principle of life.
That life is about progression, not just salvation.
That it is important to worship as a community.
There are more, but those are the first things that come to mind.
We found something we agree on completely. The one thing and maybe the only thing the church offers to me is the concept of progression. Salvation is nice but it assumes I need to be saved, not sure I do at least literally. But progression is an enticing idea that I do hope is literally true. I think the church would do well to get some more revelation on exactly what that means.
Orson wrote:Cadence wrote:Maybe god has a hand it it but certainly not in the detail Mormons would claim or religions in general.
How many Mormons? Which ones? I think more church members have their own ideas than we are able to understand. There is the line of thought that is most publicly accepted and voiced, but I have come to realize that does not accurately reflect the thoughts of Mormons in totality.
I agree with your observation. But what gets said over the pulpit and what gets talked about on Sunday is a God who is intimately involved in the minute details of life.
I think the mormon persecution complex is the most literal aspect of mormonism at this time. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
cwald wrote:I think the mormon persecution complex is the most literal aspect of mormonism at this time.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Well, that is the most prominent. Far from LDS though. Muslims with there’s. Jews with theirs. Other Christian secs with theirs. The USA with works war 2, japan with same, Israel with the suicide bombers, Russia with the lost empire and Cold War. I could list so many.
All have one thing in common and all are used for the same means.
They are all symbols and used extensively as such to draw out emotion and maintain loyalty within their tribe. And to draw others to their cause with those emotions drawn from those symbols.
To shape public policy and opinion about their tribe versus the other or others on why you need to join or support theirs.
Each tells only a portion of the picture by design to get the emotional reaction needed for loyalty by design.
Not to sound cynical that’s just the way it is.
Which I why I pledge my allegiance to no tribe and every tribe at the same time.
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