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Is it possible for someone to start out in Stage 5, completely skipping over 1-4?
Perhaps, but, if so, it is really rare. My mom might fit that description, but she also has a form of schizophrenia, so I’m not sure she would count as anything but an outlier. If this question is combined with the last one, and if “start out” means “fits stage 5 from earliest conscious recollection” or “is naturally Stage 5” – then I believe it is possible, but rare.
Quote:Or for someone to skip any of the stages,
Yes, in practical terms. No question about that, imo – but it isn’t common to skip one totally (without any cog dis at all).
Quote:go through them in a different order,
Yes, since I do believe it’s possible to “regress” within this mode prior to Stage 5 – if that is included by what you meant. Probably not, if you mean going from Stage 5 to a lower Stage – since Stage 5 really is predicated on “overcoming” (for lack of a better word) or being past Stages 3 and 4. However, it certainly is possible to be at different stages with regard to different aspects of life.
Quote:or arrive at them much earlier than most people?
Absolutely.
macalla wrote:Is it possible for someone to start out in Stage 5, completely skipping over 1-4?
Well, I think according to the theory of Fowlers Stages of faith, it would be VERY unlikely – and the probability would be very slim indeed. But, I suppose there is always the exception to the rule.
I just don’t see how the brain would ever function that way biologically speaking –how could one possibly transcend “faith” without ever having dealt with stage 3 and the cog dis that follows in stage 4
and that’s not even taking stage 1 or 2 into account – which really deals with “Santa Claus.” And I have NEVER known a kid to plunge from the womb and sit up all blue and gooey, and declare that Santa Claus is a fraud. Have you?Has there ever been a kid on this planet that did not believe in Santa Claus at one time in their life? If not, than no, no one can skip stage 1 and 2, and go directly to “pass go.”
That’s a great point; I hadn’t even thought of Santa as fitting the bill there. 😯 If that’s the case, it definitely makes more sense. The Stages of Faith are something humanity deals with, not just one religion or another. Even the most irreligious people experience these things, I’m sure. Although for them, without the label of “faith,” it may be a much easier transition. They might never even consciously notice this developmental progression in themselves or those around them. It never would have occurred to me. I always thought people just “grew up.”
How many people still believe in Santa at age 40, only to come to a faith crisis? It’s considered “normal” to grow up and learn he doesn’t exist, and no one will judge a child negatively for coming to that realization. It’s to be expected.
How many people in the church have a faith crisis, maybe make it all the way to Stage 5, without ever openly acknowledging it? Have these people been my teachers/leaders without my knowing? Did they go along with it because they thought there was something wrong with them, they weren’t “normal,” etc.?
If progressing along the Stages of faith is as normal as growing up and discovering there is no Santa, there must be an awful lot of people like us out there who are being told not to grow up
:crazy: I find this whole concept fascinating, and it explains a lot. But at the same time, it’s confusing when I try to apply it to other people
😆 I think there are many more stage 5ers in the church than we realize. Many more. However, according to Fowler —- MOST never leave stage 3. They merely jump around from stage 3 to a different aspect of stage 3. Some folks will also go to stage 4, only to fall back into a stage 3 again – with a DIFFERENT set of beliefs and faith. Example — leave the church in stage 4, and get comfortable in a stage 3 environment of Protestantism where their new belief is the only way to heaven and every one else is wrong and going to hell, including and especially the Mormons. Maybe even better example is to leave the church in stage 4, and go back to a stage 3 that NO church is true so absolutely GOD CAN NOT EXIST.. That is stage 3 thinking. Good point about Fowlers stage being a humanity deal. To me the easiest place to see it is in politics. There are a ton of stage 3ers that make up the majority of the two party system. (most people on this planet are in stage 3. It is safe and comfortable) Occasionally you will get one who goes into stage 4, and either they will transcend the party system into a stage 5 and just deal with the imperfections of the the Republican/Democrat party, or they will go back into stage 3 and switch parties OR just give up on politics out frustration that NO ONE HAS THE ANSWERS SO THEY MUST ALL BE WRONG.
That’s how I see it.
I think the recent discussion is perhaps focusing too much of faith content: Santa Clause real or fake? Mormon church true or false? Stage 4 doesn’t equal a disbelief or doubts about your church’s teachings. Faith stages are more about HOW one processes their beliefs. Stage 4 is marked by a distinct transition of authority to the individual, a strong theme of sorting content through your new personal lens of true/false detection, and the first glimpse of observing faith as an object — meaning you can step back and examine that people decide what to believe.
That is a more accurate description of Fowler’s definition of Stage 4. It isn’t about leaving or return. But that is a common reaction by LDS members because of the very strong, absolute and literal truth claims of the LDS Church.
And no, I don’t think people skip straight to Stage 5. That might be misunderstood because someone might not think about their faith in these term until they reach that type of Stage 5 awareness. Stages 0 through 2 are closely tied to human developmental psychology. A baby or young child doesn’t have the wiring yet to think of something like faith in such abstract terms. Like Cwald said, babies aren’t going to pop out of the womb and start thinking about their faith as an object they can explore. They don’t even have the language or cognitive skills to do that.
I’m hoping that if and when I get a little further into stage 5 I will be able to give Santa Claus a second chance. I believe in Santa Claus – or, at least, in St. Nicholas. Just saying. cwald is correct, I believe, that there are MANY more Stage 5 members than those who are in Stage 4 realize – and I think it’s because Stage 3 members assume Stage 5 members are just like them, in many cases, since the general outward manifestations aren’t all that different, in many cases. (Maybe they recognize a little more compassion or a tendency to talk about grace a little more or some other subtle difference, but they are “faithful members”, after all . . .) Therefore, when someone smashes into Stage 4, they tend to assume the same thing – that the Stage 5ers are Stage 3ers.
I also like how Brian addressed it. However, with the caveat of my previous comment about looking at earliest age of reason and conscious recollection, I am convinced that some people really are wired more naturally to a Stage 5 point of view, generally speaking.
Quote:A baby or young child doesn’t have the wiring yet to think of something like faith in such abstract terms. Like Cwald said, babies aren’t going to pop out of the womb and start thinking about their faith as an object they can explore. They don’t even have the language or cognitive skills to do that.
That is true, but there are some children who can do that at a young age.
I started exploring my faith as something I could construct on my own, while acknowledging the validity of others’ differing perspectives for their own individual faith and consciously choosing to be influenced or not by them,
at the latestin First Grade – when I read and pondered the Book of Mormon for the first time. I also remember doing something similar in the realm of literature (seeing and accepting differing interpretations of the books I read) at least by age nine. Reading “Jesus, the Christ” and Nibley’s stuff in middle school (age 11) furthered that process – and keeping a dictionary next to me as I read greatly helped my vocabulary. ( 😯 :crazy: )I’m using that as an example only to say that the type of journey Fowler describes is accurate as a general rule for the majority of people. I think it’s a VERY good general rule – but it still is a general rule. It’s REALLY hard to tell if someone is Stage 3 or Stage 5 through only a shallow or cursory observation, especially for someone who isn’t familiar with the whole idea in the first place. Again, that’s why most members who crash headlong into Stage 4 under-estimate the percent of members who are in Stage 5 – because they seemed like just more Stage 3ers in their past paradigm.
I’ve been thinking about the Fowler stages for quite some time now. For the past few years I’ve said that I was in stage 4. then I started saying that I was a stage 4 who was well on his way to stage 5. Today I began to wonder where I am now. perhaps I am nearly a stage 5. Perhaps I already am a stage 5. I have spoken to some people who feel like I was in stage 5.
Reason being that I no longer believed and yet I find that there may still be some good in the old teachings. I do not go to church to get into heaven. I go to church because good guidelines are taught.
Quote:NO church is true so absolutely GOD CAN NOT EXIST That is stage 3 thinking.]
I would think that would be a stage 4 thought process. They become a skeptic of their religion and all religion. It is easy to become less religious or totally nonreligious without the belief of God.
greenapples wrote:
Quote:NO church is true so absolutely GOD CAN NOT EXIST That is stage 3 thinking.]
I would think that would be a stage 4 thought process. They become a skeptic of their religion and all religion. It is easy to become less religious or totally nonreligious without the belief of God.
My understanding is stage 3 largely accepts the tradition and teachings of their community and authority figures, while a stage 4 questions everything and learns to lean on their own understanding. So if someone is stage 3 in an atheistic community the above quote could be reflective of that.
I agree with Orson’ interpretation. There are very few statements of faith that give clear indication on the Fowler stage of thinking *without* the context of that person’s life. A statement such as “God can not possibly exist” is what Fowler would call “Faith Content.” The stages of faith theory attempts to give language to HOW someone believes (the mechanics of their faith), not the WHAT they believe (the content of their faith). I personally think it natural that we straddle 2 or maybe even 3 stages simultaneously. A person is not purely in one single stage of faith, all the time, regardless of other variables. I think the mechanics of our faith can shift depending on the setting, where we are, who we are talking to, our stress level, etc.
I particularly notice when I am sitting in a church class or in sacrament meeting mentally dissecting everything a person is saying — breaking it down into parts, comparing what they say to history I have read, etc. That is a very stage 4 mode of engaging in my faith at church. Other times, I try to put myself mentally into the flow, and just let it permeate my soul and tell me a story. That is more stage-5-ish.
Ah I see. Perhaps I am stage 4 and stage 5-ish :clap: greenapples wrote:Ah I see. Perhaps I am stage 4 and stage 5-ish
:clap: People working in a Stage 3 level or lower can not generally examine their faith from an external vantage point, like you are doing. They can’t generally even make a statement like that or ask these kinds of questions. They exist fully in their story, and have just begun to build the story of stories (recognizing that others outside their group have different stories).
It takes at least a foothold in Stage 4 to start dissecting one’s faith, the ability to think about how your faith operates.
Transition into Stage 5 is motivated by a satisfaction with the dissection process, and a desire to willfully live the magic again sometimes, being tired of the flat and flavorless pile of broken pieces we have after we’ve torn it all apart inside. We become comfortable sometimes allowing ourselves to be vulnerable again to the elements of faith, and just let the stories permeate us with their symbol and meaning.
Brian Johnston wrote:
Transition into Stage 5 is motivated by a satisfaction with the dissection process, anda desire to willfully live the magic againsometimes, being tired of the flat and flavorless pile of broken pieces we have after we’ve torn it all apart inside. We become comfortable sometimes allowing ourselves to be vulnerable again to the elements of faith, and just let the stories permeate us with their symbol and meaning. Ahhh. Someday. Perhaps. Someday.
My interpretation of the stages: Stage 3: Accepting what your faith tells you as complete truth.
Stage 4: Realizing that your faith is not the whole truth and dissecting what you think is the truth.
Stage 5: Accepting the truth you have discovered and living it to the fullest. Well at the same time realizing all people have different truths they have discovered.
Stage 6: Desires to share the truth you have discovered to make the world a better place.
That is my interpretation of the stages, correct me where I am wrong.
WeightyMatters wrote:My interpretation of the stages:…
Stage 6: Desires to share the truth you have discovered to make the world a better place.
That is my interpretation of the stages, correct me where I am wrong.
Stage 6 is usually reserved for martyers. I think it goes much deeper than just sharing your belief to make the world a better place….but I can’t explain it. Its really the one stage that I don’t understand or know what it truly means, or suppose to mean.
I guess I will worry about that if I can ever move out of stage 4 for long enough to get comfortable in stage 5.
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