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Stage 6: Desires to share the truth you have discovered to make the world a better place.
Frankly, that describes lots of people in every stage. It descries the most fundamental religionists and the most extreme anarchists.
I look at Stage 6 as a complete fullness of self without an ounce of selfishness. It’s always choosing the correct action no matter what – and knowing what the correct action is. It’s godhood, without the omnipotence.
It’s definitely not as simple as just having a desire to proselyte new views. It’s represents a self-actualized mastery of religion. The people generally go viral with their ideas, but are so beyond the need to conform to others’ expectations, they are often killed by the people they are trying to help see the “truth.” They are too free for others to handle. Jesus is probably the best example to cite: a Stage 6 wandering Jewish preacher. He was a master of the Jewish religion to the point of confounding the scholars and power elite of his day. People may disagree, but I consider Joseph Smith to probably have been a Stage 6 frontier protestant. His apparent total inhibition to freely combine anything and everything in his religious environment, from Protestant Christianity to Freemasonry and folk magic, it was truly audacious. Like so many “prophet” figures before him, he took it too far and was killed. People couldn’t handle that level of freedom.
Even Dr. Fowler was sort of at a loss for words to describe Stage 6. There were only a handful of the thousands of his research interviewees that he even considered putting into this category. His books leaves the definition fairly open in his book, even stating that much more research needs to be done. Few people go this route.
WeightyMatters wrote:Stage 5: Accepting the truth you have discovered and living it to the fullest. Well at the same time realizing all people have different truths they have discovered.
One clarification on this conjunctive stage is it is not aboutmytruth, while tolerating others have their version of their truth. It is about accepting all truth from wherever it comes. It is inclusive, and completely open. It is the realization that you haven’t discovered it, you are discovering it along side others as they discover it, and the colors are more robust and beautiful with trying to see the entire rainbow of truth, not black and white (which actually aren’t colors but are devoid of color). Stage 3: You become aware that other people have different stories than yours. You must build or incorporate your group’s “story of stories” to explain why the world looks this way. The LDS “story of stories” is typically along these lines: We have the true truth revealed to us through our prophets. Other people just haven’t has the chance for the Holy Ghost to confirm our story to them, or … the devil and his minions have prevented or blocked people from feeling the way we do. Stage 5: You allow yourself to become vulnerable to your group’s stories again, and/or other stories.
A person thinking in Stage 3 style Christian context acknowledges perhaps that the Hari Krishnas have some form of truth that makes them good people.
vs.
A Stage 5 Christian might paint their face, put on robes and dance with them, or recite the mantra to Krishna with prayer beads 108 times, really FEELING it.
Good analogy, Brian. I agree. I think stage 3 has a fear that dabbling in the other groups or dancing with them will risk being caught in their currents and whisked away from the story that was built up.
Stage 4 is feeling those currents pull and there are tumultuous feelings.
Stage 5 is enjoying the ride, because riding the currents helps strengthen your faith or beliefs. There is little to none “us” vs “them” in conjunctive faith.
I think for me the challenge of going from stage 3 to 4 and then 5 in the LDS faith is that there is no tolerance from going to stage 4 and 5, they want everyone in stage 3. One of the things that is unique to the LDS church is the belief that we have all the truth and that the matter is settled. Until recently I was in stage 3 and to be honest I want to still be in stage 3, however the evidence does not allow me to stay in stage 3 and still be honest with myself. I know that to stay with the LDS faith will require me to allow people to think I am still in stage 3, because if I start talking about stage 4 and 5 I will be treated as a heretic. westfield1825, I think the Church leadership would love it if every member was in Stage 5, since Stage 5 members usually don’t leave – and they almost always are less of a headache than traditionalists locked in Stage 3. I mean that. It’s not Stage 5 that is the issue; it’s the extremes in Stage 3, and it’s Stage 4 that are the issue. I understand totally the Church leadership not wanting to push members into Stage 4. It can be cancerous and often results in people leaving – often prematurely, in the heat of the emotional moment or extended time period. My hope is the issues that often propel people into Stage 4 can be addressed openly and candidly, thus minimizing the things that will propel people into Stage 4 and allow people to move more seamlessly from Stage 3 into Stage 5 – and I see the current Church leadership trying to do that in many ways.
Fwiw, Pres. Uchtdorf seems to me to be solidly within Stage 5 – which includes a recognition of and care for those in Stage 3. Thus, his messages tend to be inclusive and balanced – focusing on attitude and the Gospel more than exclusive and rule-specific.
I have not read Fowler s book nor listened to the podcast as of yet but it sounds a little like Scott Pecks four stages of spiritual growth in his book “The Different Drummer” Stage one: Chaotic Antisocial, a state of undeveloped spirituality. Our relationships are generally manipulative and self-serving. Stage two: Formal, institutional, we are more concerned about the forms of our religion than with its essence. The letter of the Law, we surrender all freedom of choice and judgment to church leaders. Stage Three, skeptic, individual. we may be seen by others as unbelievers but we tend to be more spiritually developed. This does no mean that all skeptics are spirituality developed many are stuck in stage one. People in stage three tend to be free thinkers and are not bothered nor ground to the earth in dogma theology, culture or historical inconsistencies. Stage Four, mystical, communal, people in stage four seek the unknown and the unknowable. They are logical and reasonable an yet still believe in “this crazy God business.” The celebrate differences and actively peruse community. In talking about faith development in “A Road Less Traveled” Peck makes this observation. “To be vital, to be the best of which we are capable, our religion must be wholly personal, forged entirely through the fire of our own questioning and doubting in the crucible of our own experience of reality.” Clay wrote:In talking about faith development in “A Road Less Traveled” Peck makes this observation. “To be vital, to be the best of which we are capable, our religion must be wholly personal, forged entirely through the fire of our own questioning and doubting in the crucible of our own experience of reality.”
I love that, and it reminds me of one of my favorite scriptures – the idea that we need to lose our life in order to find it. Sometimes we need to lose our “certainty” about religion to be able to find our authentic and more powerful spirituality.
Orson wrote:I love that, and it reminds me of one of my favorite scriptures – the idea that we need to lose our life in order to find it. Sometimes we need to lose our “certainty” about religion to be able to find our authentic and more powerful spirituality.
Sorry to tag on to the end of an old post but I`ve just read Orsons interpretation of the “losing our life to find it ” scripture. I`d never considered that reading of it before.. but it resonates. Thank you.
I just got through reading the entirethread (it took some time) and I have to say… thanks. Thanks to everyone that commented in this thread. In many, many ways this thread has helped me to understand what I’ve been going through for several years now. The 2nd and 3rd pages really, really opened my eyes. Really too much to process and comment on at the moment, however I will say:
Brian Johnston wrote:You have to get to a point where you can allow religious symbols and metaphors to speak to you again, just letting them tell you their story and take you where they go without trying to force them into your paradigm of “truth.” Its hard, but it is worth it.
Thank you for that comment. With where I’m at in my life I feel like this is what my new goal should be. I’ve always looked for and found truth from all sources, not just the church. I think having a life before joining the church has helped in that regard… but lately I’ve struggled with feelings that could best be described as “does truth even exist?” The end result is that I’ve often felt like a stranger in a strange land. At times I want to be a self-imposed hermit, at other times I need that social interaction. I’ve been extremely depressed for years now, I’d like to move on.
I’m a bit confused about the definition of stage 3 and how it relates to the LDS church. In church I’ve always heard that we believe that there is truth in everything and that if something is true that it is inscribed into our religion by default. In reading some of the definitions of stage 3 it seems like this stage fosters in some ways an “us vs. them” mindset, which doesn’t seem to jive with the truth in everything doctrine. Isn’t the admonition “If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things?” Couple that with Alma and planting the seed (experimenting) to see if it is good and I don’t know how we come away with the notion that you can’t incorporate good from sources external to the church. In fact it seems to encourage the experimentation of “truths” from external sources and retaining all truths found to be good.
cwald wrote:Maybe even better example is to leave the church in stage 4, and go back to a stage 3 that NO church is true so absolutely GOD CAN NOT EXIST.. That is stage 3 thinking.
Interesting, this might be exactly what I’m going through; however, I don’t like the places that route is taking me, I still want to believe. My new mantra often uttered out of desperation is “help thou my unbelief.” As much as I disagree with labels maybe it would help me with my own personal progression to first know and understand better where I am currently. After all, a journey needs a starting point.
Tolerance: I’ve got a live and let live attitude. Don’t obey the Word of Wisdom? Don’t let that stop you from coming to church. Don’t go to our church but your belief system is working for you? That’s fine, if you ever need us we’re here, if you never need us that’s okay too. I get the sense that tolerance is outside the scope of this discussion though. Everyone should be tolerant regardless.
Why I still go to church: Mostly for my family, to not be a stumbling block to them learning the good principles that the church espouses. On a personal level… I still live the commandments, I guess my activity level hinges on the church providing one of the best outlets to learn to love more and more people and to give service where I can.
I see that anger often accompanies stage 4. Maybe that’s an indication that my stint into stage 4 was brief, as I’ve never felt hostility toward the church (for a perceived notion of being duped, etc.). I’m truly grateful for all the decisions I’ve made like joining the church, serving a mission, getting married in the temple, paying tithing, countless hours in church, etc., etc. That stuff has made me who I am. I wouldn’t trade those decisions for anything. Anything.
I’ll leave my incoherent thoughts with this:
How would a stage 4 person deal with mission work within the church? Is this possible?
nibbler, thanks for your thoughts. I realize you are doing lots of reading, but you may also want to check out one of my favorite FairMormon speeches by Dr Wendy Ulrich “
“Believest thou…?”: Faith, Cognitive Dissonance, and the Psychology of Religious Experiencenibbler wrote:How would a stage 4 person deal with mission work within the church? Is this possible?
For the most part, stage 4 person doesn’t see value in missionary work because they don’t trust the institution sending the message that missionaries are delivering. In fact, they probably get offended by it, and want to bash with the missionaries to want to prove they don’t know what they are talking about, that there is no way to know if those things are true, and possibly to point out to the missionaries the difficult tenets of the gospel that bother the individual. Perhaps they don’t bash, but silently shake their heads and say “that mission work is a waste of time”, and ignore it.
Whereas someone in stage 3 has definite beliefs that mission work is right, or it is wrong. That there is one way.
Stage 5 is someone more open to talking to LDS missionaries, JW proselytizers, or other missionaries or anyone who respectfully talks of their belief in God and sees the value in how that dedication and mission spirit is carried out. Stage 5 is not just tolerance, but true appreciation for various views of faith, and seeing how multiple sources of truth provide a brighter picture than just one stage 3 source of truth.
I just read this entire thread as well. What a doozy, but so interesting and insightful. I had an epiphany of sorts over the last few weeks. I have felt better than I have since I started my “faith crisis.”
I didn’t have words to describe what I was thinking or feeling, but when I read this thread the crux of it is that I have essentially transitioned from Stage 4 to a Stage 5 view of the world. It’s so different, so new and yet so exhilarating and liberating.
I guess I need to take the time to read the whole thread as I seem to be stuck in Stage 4. I think I have moments of Stage 5, but it hasn’t stuck. I feel like Nibbler, it’s time to move on. Also wondering about the missionary work aspect. Our ward is making a HUGE missionary work push and has this elaborate program set up (I may write about that in a separate thread) and DH wants to follow the bishop and participate, but I don’t. I have no desire to bash with anyone, but how can I share or lead someone to something I don’t even believe in?
DH and I have also always talked about serving a mission someday. That someday is still about 8-10 years away, but now I don’t want to do it. I haven’t told him that and who knows if things will change, but it’s just not part of my future plans anymore. Could progressing to Stage 5 possibly help me with that?
I was a WML for 2 years postfaith crisis. I’d really like to get in on that discussion. Maybe you should create that thread. 
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