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In case you missed the current event in Mormondom: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-2021-byu-university-conference ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-2021-byu-university-conference IMO JRH’s words have set us back, waaaaaaaaay back. Like, way back.
Random highlights:
Quote:If a student commandeers a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas in order to announce his personal sexual orientation, what might another speaker feel free to announce the next year until eventually anything goes? What might commencement come to mean — or not mean — if we push individual license over institutional dignity for very long? Do we simply end up with more divisiveness in our culture than we already have — and we already have too much everywhere.
In that spirit, let me go no farther before declaring unequivocally my love and that of my Brethren for those who live with this same-sex challenge and so much complexity that goes with it. Too often the world has been unkind, in many instances crushingly cruel, to these our brothers and sisters. Like many of you, we have spent hours with them, and wept and prayed and wept again in an effort to offer love and hope while keeping the gospel strong and the obedience to commandments evident in every individual life.
First and foremost, the student’s speech was PREAPPROVED. He didn’t commandeer anything.
Second, slippery slope.
Third, if we’re going the slippery slope route, if Holland says things like this to BYU faculty and staff, can you imagine what will be said from the podium during October general conference? Anything goes! Unfortunately in this case much has already been said over the general conference podium.
Fourth, if we can’t support the bravery of that young man then what institutional dignity is there to protect?
Too often it is
church leadersthat are unkind, it is church leadersbeing divisive. Not unlike comments made in this address. We weep with “those who live with this same-sex challenge,” we… the authors of their pain.
Say gay. Say it. Just say gay. If we can’t say gay then how can we begin to weep with them?
Classic say divisive things and act in divisive ways and then when the other side resists play the persecution card and lament all the divisiveness to shame the other side into silence. Maybe I’m doing the same here.
I won’t even get into the muskets symbolism that was used in the address. Maybe it’s time to bury our weapons.
It’s a tough time to StayLDS.
I happened to be on campus during this time but not at the speech. I know i hang with a different crowd than the intended audience but my crowd, more specifically my student children’s crowd, did not take this well. Holland was speaking to a specific audience though, even though I’m not sure that audience is fully on board either because they are not all old guard. The biggest exception I took was calling out the young man and the use of the word commandeered. He did not commandeer the podium, it was given to him because he was an outstanding academic – exactly the kind BYU wants.
I’m not a Holland fan precisely because he does things like this. It’s great he talks about accepting and nurturing those with mental health concerns, but apparently the buck stops there. Where’s cancel culture when you need it?
Quote:individual license over institutional dignity
How about individual DIGNITY over institutional LICENSE, because that’s what we are really talking about here.
As to the idea that the brethren have wept over this issue, hmmm. I have no doubt whatsoever that they are all really upset at being called bigots and homophobes and that the loss of their power is triggering an emotional response for them. Poor poor them. Crocodile tears, I say. I am not buying it at all, and I suspect none of the parents of LGBT kids are buying it either. When your child is suicidal because of the teachings they hear at Church, afraid to come out because they are convinced they will be kicked out and ostracized, and feeling unsafe because their BYU-I roommates are openly joking about doing violence to gay kids, then you have cause to weep about these issues. When you double down on hate speech, invoke violence among your followers with metaphors of muskets, and state openly your willingness to lose university accreditation rather than back down, rendering your students’ and professors’ investments worthless, you aren’t the victim here.
Amen Hawk. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: We recently had a young man from a neighboring ward commit suicide at BYU. Father was the former bishop and is on the high council. The kid got back from his mission about a year ago. Very likable guy. I did not know he was gay. These stories break my heart. I’d take the assault charge, I would literally slap Holland were I to see him.
DarkJedi wrote:
The biggest exception I took was calling out the young man and the use of the word commandeered. He did not commandeer the podium, it was given to him because he was an outstanding academic – exactly the kind BYU wants.
That’s what I thought when I read this. And is the podium really “intended to represent everyone getting diplomas”? If it was, wouldn’t they have an average student give a speech, since they would be most representative? Instead, we have the valedictorian speak, to recognize their exceptional achievement and the fact that they are not like everyone else in the graduating class. And I think someone in a position of power like Elder Holland directly calling out an individual (especially one from a vulnerable group) like that is just plain bullying.
If there’s any silver lining, it’s the fact that the only reason Elder Holland feels this speech is necessary is that the general trend is moving in exactly the opposite direction. The younger generations, including current BYU students, are pushing towards love and inclusion, and I doubt anything church leadership says can change that.
What a strange speech. Lots to unpack here. One part that really hit me as strange: Quote:“You should know,” the writer says, “that some people in the extended community are feeling abandoned and betrayed by BYU. It seems that some professors (at least the vocal ones in the media) are supporting ideas that many of us feel are contradictory to gospel principles, making it appear to be about like any other university our sons and daughters could have attended. Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school.
“Please don’t think I’m opposed to people thinking differently about policies and ideas,” the writer continues. “I’m not. But I would hope that BYU professors would be bridging those gaps between faith and intellect and would be sending out students that are ready to do the same in loving, intelligent and articulate ways. Yet, I fear that some faculty are not supportive of the Church’s doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly. There are consequences to this. After having served a full-time mission and marrying her husband in the temple, a friend of mine recently left the church. In her graduation statement on a social media post, she credited [such and such a BYU program and its faculty] with the radicalizing of her attitudes and the destruction of her faith.”[6]
I work in management and get complaint letters all the time. This one came across as entitled to me. What amazing sense of privilidge to write to an apostle for something that does not appear to affect the author personally. Not sending the letter to the professor with whom you disagree or the head of the department or even the university president. They went straight to an apostle. That is the ultimate, “I want to talk to your manager” move. I might even call it a “Karen” letter.
I am also less than impressed with the “Radicalizing of [the author’s friend’s] attitudes and the destruction of her faith.” The LDS church has some issues with its history which is enmeshed with its truth claims. Some of these past claims find challenges in the realms of history, science, psychology, critical thinking and more. Young people living away from home are going to go through some developmentally appropriate self discovery. University also is a place where people should be exposed to new perspectives and ways of thinking. Add all of these up and an adult woman deciding that she no longer wants to be an LDS church member does not really seem noteworthy. Do we really expect BYU to babysit these students?
Later in the speech comes this quote:
Quote:Musket fire? Yes, we will always need defenders of the faith, but “friendly fire” is a tragedy — and from time to time the Church, its leaders and some of our colleagues within the university community have taken such fire on this campus. And sometimes it isn’t friendly —
wounding students and the parents of students who are confused about what so much recent flag-waving and parade-holding on this issue means.Beloved friends, this kind of confusion and conflict ought not to be. There are better ways to move toward crucially important goals in these very difficult matters — ways that show empathy and understanding for everyone while maintaining loyalty to prophetic leadership and devotion to revealed doctrine. Underlining mine.
I believe that the underlined sentence refers to individuals like the person that penned the letter referenced above. These are those that are “confused” by “so much recent flag-waving and parade-holding.” They (according to Elder Holland) are the real victims here, the real “tragedy.” Poor, poor Karen.
Quote:Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school.
Another damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Continue without change, parents won’t want their children to attend and will stop donating. Change, parents won’t want their children to attend and will stop donating. What are the short term risks? What are the long term risks? What is the greater risk?
We’re a conservative religion. We fear change. We’ll err on the side of resisting change.
That and because we’re a conservative religion I think the leaders are more likely to hear the Karens that complain about change whereas the Karens that complain about no change fall outside their audible spectrum.
Roy wrote:
I believe that the underlined sentence refers to individuals like the person that penned the letter referenced above. These are those that are “confused” by “so much recent flag-waving and parade-holding.” They (according to Elder Holland) are the real victims here, the real “tragedy.” Poor, poor Karen.
The job then is to educate the people that are confused. Teach them the love that is behind the flag waving and parade-holding. The solution sure isn’t to break out the muskets on the flag wavers and parade holders.
I guess I feel like it’s time to call a spade a spade. They are bigots. The church is FULL of bigots. They cater to the bigots because they agree with them. He said, “We have to be careful that love and empathy do not get interpreted as condoning and advocacy, or that orthodoxy and loyalty to principle not be interpreted as unkindness or disloyalty to people.”
He doesn’t want flags, just everyone treating gay people well, and a house that at least appears united because it doesn’t fixate on these issues. The rainbow-lit “Y” was too much for some people. But the real changes are happening in people’s hearts and homes. And they choose their gay kids’ health and happiness over the church. And in the house next door, they have gay friends, and choose them over the church. For them, the issue is not so very “challenging and complex.”
I don’t know that it was such a good idea to refer to and distribute President Kimball’s 1976 “Second Century Address,” because, at least for me, it calls to mind the era pre- black priesthood ordination and reminds me that our leaders have been just plain wrong in the past.
I don’t know what the end game will be, but it shouldn’t be a whole class of people that can’t hold hands on campus. People that are “othered,” fretted and prayed over as though there is something wrong with them.
Found on facebook, worth sharing. This was posted publicly, so I won’t mask the name: Rob McFarland wrote:
I am a BYU professor. I do not build walls, sacred or secular. That is not my job.I am a bridge builder. My tools: hammers and trowels, faith and knowledge, no muskets needed.
I am a bridge builder. My driving force: to reach out to the other side, to the hard theoretical text, to the unfamiliar experience of other people around the world, to the confusing but brilliant idea.
I am a bridge builder. I cannot control where my students’ journeys will take them, but be sure if one thing: on my bridge, they will walk together and they will be safe. All of them.
I am a bridge builder. Bridges are for travel, not for marking divisions. I do not stand in the middle forbidding imagined firey dark Balrogs to pass.
I am a BYU professor. I am a bridge builder. On one side of every bridge I build, it says: “by faith and also by knowledge.” On the other side of every bridge, a quote by Rilke: “Stretch the powers of your developing mind until it can reach between two contradictions”.
I am a BYU professor. I build bridges. Send your children to BYU. Send the cock-sure confident ones. Send the crumbling, unsure ones. Sent me those beautiful LGBTQ+ students. Send the traditional ones, the ultra-orthodox ones, the he-men, the feminissimas, and the gender-fluid ones. Please send me black lives, send me native lives and some white kids too. Send them all.
They. Shall. All. Pass.
Quote:I don’t know what the end game will be, but it shouldn’t be a whole class of people that can’t hold hands on campus. People that are “othered,” fretted and prayed over as though there is something wrong with them.
Here’s another way of stating the problem in the Church. Which of these two people (if either) should be subject to censure:
1) a gay kid at BYU who tells others that he’s gay, but also faithful
2) a straight kid at BYU who tells all his roommates that if he ever met someone gay, he’d beat the hell out of him because gay people are perverts and have no right to live
We all know what the reality is on the ground. Even if the Church says everyone should be treated with love, we all know for a fact that kid #2 will never have any consequences for his threatening behavior. Kid #1 will be told that he’s wrong for self-identifying as gay which is “divisive.” Which one is really being divisive?
I don’t believe it has been pointed out yet that Holland’s talk came in the heals of the announcement of the Office of Belonging at BYU. https://news.byu.edu/announcements/byu-forms-new-office-of-belonging ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://news.byu.edu/announcements/byu-forms-new-office-of-belonging From the announcement:
Quote:
THE STATEMENT ON BELONGINGWe are united by our common primary identity as children of God (Acts 17:29; Psalm 82:6) and our commitment to the truths of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ (BYU Mission Statement). We strive to create a community of belonging composed of students, faculty, and staff whose hearts are knit together in love (Mosiah 18:21) where:
All relationships reflect devout love of God and a loving, genuine concern for the welfare of our neighbor (BYU Mission Statement);
We value and embrace the variety of individual characteristics, life experiences and circumstances, perspectives, talents, and gifts of each member of the community and the richness and strength they bring to our community (1 Corinthians 12:12–27);
Our interactions create and support an environment of belonging (Ephesians 2:19); and
The full realization of each student’s divine potential is our central focus (BYU Mission Statement).
Quote:Worthen emphasized that the Office of Belonging will not only be core to BYU’s efforts to root out racism, but also to combat “prejudice of any kind, including that based on race, ethnicity, nationality, tribe, gender, age, disability, socioeconomic status, religious belief and
sexual orientation.” (emphasis added)
DarkJedi: I don’t know if you saw this, but within 72 hours, a petition was started up to eliminate the Office of Belonging. Yep, that’s right, the Karens are in charge now, and even though they got to speak to the manager, it wasn’t enough. No, Hawk, I didn’t but I did see the video of the man erasing the rainbow colored chalk drawing on campus and saying faggots go to hell. I also saw BYU’s response: Quote:“We unequivocally condemn behavior and language that is disrespectful and hurtful. There is no place for hateful speech, or prejudice of any kind, on our campus or in our community. The Honor Code explicitly states that each member of the BYU community has the obligation to respect others. The incident seen in a video circulation on social media is now under review. This behavior runs counter to the directives shared by President Worthen in his University Conference address Monday. We are striving to create a community of belonging composed of students, faculty and staff whose hearts are knit together in love. Every student and individual on our campus deserves to feel that belonging.”?
I agree, this is what Worthen said. I’m not sure it’s not what Holland said.
I actually think Worthen’s been pretty great overall, but I have no illusions that the hate speech kid will have any consequences applied to him. A great president < the board of trustees. Also, minor inconvenience to conservatives > actual death threats and hate speech to liberals.
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