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Now this is an interesting one. Never been to one of their meetings before but happen to know a lot about them from their own literature and from (ex-/current) members. This was a mid week one. Recently I watched the film Apostasy which partly sparked my interest.
JWs are interesting to LDS because it can sometimes be like looking into a fairground mirror for them IMHO. It is a bit like that for me. Everybody’s wearing suits, the language is peculiar – in fact more peculiar than us in some ways (faithful and discreet slave?), but to be fair they were fairly pleasant to me. I don’t mean we aren’t peculiar, we’re just familiar to ourselves now!
The besuited elders (what their leadership is called) got a hold of me practically I came in the door, asked me my name and a whole host of other personal info.. much like the LDS do. The building was extremely plain. Just a room with cheap chairs.
The meeting was a bit of a surprise though. Very tightly controlled and I mean really tightly controlled. You could follow it all through JW.org and all the other kingdom halls do the same thing on the same week. There was little room for a real talk. All the readings were short and prescribed (although strangely not all from the New World Translation – that was a surprise). All the answers were tightly controlled – who could speak and who couldn’t was decided by two men (both African) with a roving mike.
There was another surprise as well. There was no musician in the kingdom hall whatsoever. An overhead projector beamed the songs and other material onto the wall – a very standard message. The music was piped in. The hymns were extremely strange and not what I was expecting. I believe the JWs have copied the LDS over the years (e.g. adopting a family message which they never had sixty years ago)… but I didn’t realize they’d been copying evangelicals as well. The first hymn was kind of jazzy in a bizarre way and could have just about been happy clappy but not quite. The others had weird orchestral backing. One of them had very anti-racist lyrics.
Videos was featured heavily and integrated into the program in a way ours aren’t. Again very different. They featured people in blacked out silhouette talking to each other in missionary situations. They were extremely unrealistic on a number of levels. I know the general public well in this sense. One brother gave a reading and the pausing and emphasis in his reading was discussed. V. different too.
There was the token bored 12 year old boy, and younger folk who wore slightly off beat clothing (dark shirts). Oh and a couple of absolutely gorgeous women who were sitting in front of me (some of the younger men were actually pretty good looking too although at 30 they seem to look clapped out).
So would Sam Bee join? A resounding no. Nice people, until you cross them and then shunning comes in. I couldn’t take that. I did ask about the 144,000 and was given a very good answer. He said that they were the “first fruits” – their language, but far more than that would be saved. Good answer. Funnily enough I couldn’t fault the theology in the Bible discussion but the whole thing was much more mechanical than us. They really have no life outside their organization – which they should – since spirituality is more than that. Little beauty in their artistic works either.
Interesting. Thanks for the insight. These are the things which stood out as similar: * The dress.
* The leadership.
* The audience participation.
* The heavy use of jargon
And as different:
* The fact that everything was so scripted to the letter, even the responses.
* The use of audiovisual.
* Lack of windows.
* Piped music.
SamBee wrote:
And as different:* The fact that everything was so scripted to the letter, even the responses.
* The use of audiovisual.
* Lack of windows.
* Piped music.
Maybe every ward is different but I can honestly say that I’ve been to LDS meetings where each of these differences has held true.
I do find myself wondering how a JW would review our meetings. They certainly feel stranger and stranger to me as time goes by.
I once worked with a woman who was a JW. She told me about a young woman in their congregation who had become pregnant out of wedlock and was shunned as a result. I will say that she told me that she took no pleasure in not interacting with her and after a period of time (I don’t know how that was determined) the young woman was welcomed back into “the fold.” This colleague told me that the end of her shunning was marked by an informal celebration and that everyone was relieved and happy it was over. I’ve no idea if this is typical but it gave me an interesting insight into at least this woman’s view of shunning. My takeaway is that for Jehovah’s Witnesses shunning is a formal disciplinary process that all agree to. I do believe shunning takes place in the LDS Church but that it is done informally (if at all). I’m not saying for a moment that I agree with either religion’s approach but just offering it up for comparison and contrast.
nibbler wrote:
SamBee wrote:
And as different:* The fact that everything was so scripted to the letter, even the responses.
* The use of audiovisual.
* Lack of windows.
* Piped music.
Maybe every ward is different but I can honestly say that I’ve been to LDS meetings where each of these differences has held true.
I do find myself wondering how a JW would review our meetings. They certainly feel stranger and stranger to me as time goes by.
Trust me…. this was A LOT more scripted than LDS meerings. It was timed to the minute. The LDS don’t do that. Not just the recorded videos, but everything else. In LDS discussions you get curve balls – not here though.
When I say scripted… I mean scripted by ten times of any our meetings. Imagine if ALL our hymns had a MoTab backing track. Imagine if reading Ensign was compulsory rather than obligatory (and you can get away with it, trust me)
Our nearest equivalent would be general conference. Except this wasn’t a general conference equivalent but a weekly meeting.
Like I say… a fairground mirror show. I could see the similarities but also the differences.
I agree that our meetings are strange but they are familiar to us.
Gerald wrote:
I once worked with a woman who was a JW. She told me about a young woman in their congregation who had become pregnant out of wedlock and was shunned as a result.
I’ve seen this happen (informally) in LDS culture. I always thought it was kind of silly. Having sex out of wedlock is a sin. Getting pregnant out of wedlock is not. In fact, if you get pregnant out of wedlock, that usually means that the accompanying sex-out-of-wedlock wasn’t premeditated. It usually was a sin out of passion, in the heat of the moment… and chose to stick with the consequences. But for someone who took some preparations for committing the same act is usually not looked at as bad.
Sorry, off the post random tangent. I just think we should take a little more compassion on those who get pregnant out of wedlock. They should be viewed for their courage, rather than “shunned”.
dande48 wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I once worked with a woman who was a JW. She told me about a young woman in their congregation who had become pregnant out of wedlock and was shunned as a result.
I’ve seen this happen (informally) in LDS culture. I always thought it was kind of silly. Having sex out of wedlock is a sin. Getting pregnant out of wedlock is not. In fact, if you get pregnant out of wedlock, that usually means that the accompanying sex-out-of-wedlock wasn’t premeditated. It usually was a sin out of passion, in the heat of the moment… and chose to stick with the consequences. But for someone who took some preparations for committing the same act is usually not looked at as bad.
Sorry, off the post random tangent. I just think we should take a little more compassion on those who get pregnant out of wedlock. They should be viewed for their courage, rather than “shunned”.
Huh??!!
:problem: I know the church is a bit different in different places, but getting pregnant out of wedlock is looked at with the same judgementalism here as just having sex out of wedlock (except that when one becomes pregnant the sex is more obvious and probably adds to the judgementalism). This actually happened in our ward last year (teen pregnancy) and the girl and her family have since dropped out of sight.My son’s best friend in high school was a JW. My son thinks highly of JWs, and did attend a couple of meetings (they have weeknight study meetings as well). After high school his friend “fell away” and is currently being shunned. He doesn’t care about the shunning per se right now because he, like lots of LDS boys, has decided the “church is not true” and doesn’t desire to be part of it any more (and would have to do a whole lot of penance to return anyway). The thing that bothers him is his family. They won’t speak to him or other wise have contact with him. A few months ago he went out to dinner at a restaurant not knowing they were there. They were in the middle of their meal and got up and left. I’m not condemning them, I’m just saying that shunning is part of their practice and culture and were it part of our practice and culture we’d do the same thing and be fine with it.
(I recognize that Mary seems to have been an exception, but I think what little we know about that story indicates she was looked down upon as well.)
Gerald wrote:
I once worked with a woman who was a JW. She told me about a young woman in their congregation who had become pregnant out of wedlock and was shunned as a result.
Shunnings within the JW is WAY more than in the LDS church. Go listen to the podcast “Shunned” to get a sampling.A friend of my husband is JW and experienced shunning. During her shunning she took advantage of the disconnect. However, something drew her back. She’s never said what, but once was allowed back in the fold she has returned with zeal. DarkJedi wrote:
Huh??!! I know the church is a bit different in different places, but getting pregnant out of wedlock is looked at with the same judgementalism here as just having sex out of wedlock (except that when one becomes pregnant the sex is more obvious and probably adds to the judgementalism).
It’s easier to “sweep under the rug”, is more what I meant. Easier to pretend everything’s fine, ignore it, etc. I’d say the more obvious sins are judged harsher than the quiet ones.
LookingHard wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I once worked with a woman who was a JW. She told me about a young woman in their congregation who had become pregnant out of wedlock and was shunned as a result.
Shunnings within the JW is WAY more than in the LDS church. Go listen to the podcast “Shunned” to get a sampling.
Indeed, that’s what the film Apostasy is about.
And yes, it means members treat you as invisible and inaudible. If you keep regular contact with such a person, you may end up shunned yourself.
I have been “shunned” in a non-JW context. I was very young and it was horrible. I had just been expelled from a school and a friend and his father never ever spoke to me again and treated me if I wasn’t there. I think I could stand it better now but as a child I didn’t have those resources.
That said, this thread isn’t mainly about shunning but my impressions of one service.
And what is the worst about JW (and scientology) shunning is how it is “enforced” especially in families. For a JW that finds himself on the outs, his parents are really pressured to knot even make eye contact with the child, let alone ever talk with them. That is just cruel. DW and I met with a very nice JW couple for several months. Observations: 1) JW beliefs are generally internally consistent. Looking from the inside there is nothing that seems off. They have a system of belief based on the bible with particular emphasis on some verses over others (just like other Christian churches of which I am familiar).
2) One of the biggest differentiators to other religions is the degree to which JW’s take seriously the concepts of God’s kingdom on earth, God’s special people, and remaining separate and apart from “the world.” This helps explain many of their more notable behaviors like not voting, not entering the military, and not celebrating many “normal” holidays. This to me also represents one of the bigger sacrifices of belonging to this religion as there appears to be intentional isolationism from broader society. (incidentally, such isolationism may make “shunning” more severe as all your social eggs might be concentrated in the JW basket).
3) JW’s services are not entertaining. DW and I have visited a JW service before. There was a cry/baby room in the back for those with young kids and we stayed there with our young children. The JW’s come to church primarily by the force of their conviction. This is similar to LDS but the JW’s seem to take it more extreme. The LDS have cub scouts, ward socials, and other activities that might interest non-members. The Jehovah witnesses do not seem to be interested in such activities but focus on indoctrination.
3) This JW couple was content visiting us as Mormons. They openly commented how nice it was to talk to people that believed the bible. My “sheepese” allowed me to talk the talk. The flexibility of my nuanced religious worldview allowed me to explore and be fascinated by their religious system on one hand while staying grounded to my own religious beliefs on the other hand. Ultimately, They stopped visiting us because of my eventual confession to non-literal belief in the bible. I imagine that without a literal belief in Adam and Eve they saw no path forward for my conversion.
Roy wrote:
DW and I met with a very nice JW couple for several months. Observations:1) JW beliefs are generally internally consistent. Looking from the inside there is nothing that seems off. They have a system of belief based on the bible with particular emphasis on some verses over others (just like other Christian churches of which I am familiar).
There are other issues. They tend to use their own translation which suits their doctrine and is inconsistent. Stylistically I find the NWT horrible – JWs have never has a knack for beautiful prose.
Also, a lot of their doctrine is dependent on Watchtower. And doctrine changes on a regular basis. A lot of JWs notice this if they are around for long enough.
Roy wrote:
2) One of the biggest differentiators to other religions is the degree to which JW’s take seriously the concepts of God’s kingdom on earth, God’s special people, and remaining separate and apart from “the world.” This helps explain many of their more notable behaviors like not voting, not entering the military, and not celebrating many “normal” holidays.
I respect their military stance very much. We are at the opposite extreme.
No Xmas, no birthdays. I wouldn’t miss Xmas one bit though. I detest it. (Except the carols)
Roy wrote:
3) JW’s services are not entertaining. DW and I have visited a JW service before. There was a cry/baby room in the back for those with young kids and we stayed there with our young children. The JW’s come to church primarily by the force of their conviction. This is similar to LDS but the JW’s seem to take it more extreme. The LDS have cub scouts, ward socials, and other activities that might interest non-members. The Jehovah witnesses do not seem to be interested in such activities but focus on indoctrination.
Scouts are on the way out with us. We never had them in my ward. I found the meeting a bit circular. Basically I was being told how to do street work, even though I wssn’t a member. Or to put it another way – to see how to get people to come along to see how to get other people to come along.
LDS meetings can be entertaining. It does happen! You hear funny stories. The JW service had no such wriggle room.
Indoctrination is a harsh word perhaps. It’s not brainwashing, but reinforcement IMHO.
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