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Christianity has become a phenomenally successful belief system. I think that arguments can be made that Christianity is what made the modern world, including science, possible. Societies of pagans, Muslims, and Hindus seemed to max out at a certain level of achievement, but the Christian world has exceeded all other religious societies technologically and economically. And so the “Christian Ethic” has proven itself to be very successful. But was Jesus real, and does it matter?
I think that Jesus was probably a real person or a conglomeration of a few people, but it’s possible that Jesus never really existed. The Jesus story fits a set of archetypal myths, and at this point I don’t really think that Jesus literally rose from the dead. I also doubt that the miracles were real.
But these stories seem to have real value even if they never happened. I think that the success of the Christian Ethic speaks to the value of the stories, regardless of whether or not they are historical.
So I currently regard the stories of Jesus as myths – powerful stories that teach us how to live and about what it means to be human. But I don’t think that any of the supernatural stuff is literally true.
What are your thoughts?
There is a really good thread about this in our archives, but it might be hard to find, given how often Jesus is mentioned here. If I can find it I will provide a link. I just want to make one point that I believe is important:
Christianity is responsible for a lot of ignorance and destruction in the world throughout history. At one point (lasting a long time), Christian nations wallowed in filth and ignorance while Muslim nations of the time flourished and surpassed the Christian nations in every way imaginable with regard to openness, education and scientific achievement. The difference was stark, the opposite of what we see now in many cases. In Western Europe, only the very rich and the clergy could read, books were rare, people didn’t bathe, medicine was primitive, most people believed the Earth was flat, etc. Meanwhile, in Muslim nations, there were public libraries, international trade grew, people bathed regularly, doctors performed simple brain surgery, scientists charted the stars and understood the Earth is round, etc. It was the sweeping conquest by the tribes of the Northern Asian steppes (Genghis Khan et. al.) that left destruction of the Muslim nations in its wake before losing steam and failing to crush the Christian nations that changed all of that, not any inherent difference in theology or work ethic.
Thus, it was geography more than anything else that changed the world and plunged the Muslim nations beneath the Christian nations.The Muslim world still is dealing with the aftermath of that terrible tragedy. We can get a bit . . . blinded . . . by the current situation of the world and lose sight of the fact that it hasn’t always been this way.
/back to a discussion of Jesus
Just to underscore what Curtis has said, look at Rome. The Roman Republic predated Christianity and the Roman Empire’s power seemed to coincide closely with persecution of Christians. In fact, Rome’s collapse began about the same point on the timeline as Roman conversion to Christianity. I look at Christianity as having been the beneficiary of the eventual rise to prominence of the West, rather than the cause of it. Put another way, had Japan won WWII, we might all be worshiping the Emperor.
I had thought that scientific and intellectual progress in the Muslim world had stopped because of religious fundamentalism. Perhaps the book I got that from was incorrect in that regard. I’d be interested in that other thread.
It’s possible to interpret the cessation as being the result of fundamentalism, but I think it is more accurate to say that the collapse of the advanced civilizations caused by the decimation inflicted by the invading armies left huge areas in ruin – which led to the rise of fundamentalism, which inhibited rebuilding to the former levels of achievement. In many cases, the leading scholars were rounded up and killed, leaving only the less- or un-educated citizenry untouched. In practical effect, it devastated progress and enlightenment, caused massive and widespread poverty, and led to reactionary social policies that persist in many places hundreds of years later.
I’m looking for that other thread. I will bump it up for comment when (if) I find it.
I really love this discussion. For whatever reason I never have been compelled to study in depth history until my Faith transition. It was like what I knew was true and I don’t care to know anything else. Now I can’t get enough of history and pondering why people are different and what makes them believe and behave the way they do. What were the influences etc… it is wonderful!! I love having my brain open and not fearing what I will learn. So I want to say thank you to offering a smidge of history Curtis. I also think it depends on what book you read as to what history is taught. Which leads me to question.. how do you know where to get the real facts?
As far a Jesus goes.. interesting. If you would have told me last year at this time that I would think Jesus as a “good man” and not as the Savior I would have died laughing. But now I honestly can say that I just don’t KNOW anything. I feel a power in believing in “His Power” but I think it is just the power that I want to believe in.. not necessarily real and definitely the only power. I also don’t know if he ever lived or if he was just made up. I was telling my husband about a book I am reading “The Power of Myths” and that apparently there has been Myths 500 years before Jesus that told the same story. My brother told me that there are at least 7 stories in history that tells the same story. So, now I don’t know what to believe or that it even matters.
In a way it is really difficult to not have a belief that I can just “give all my problems” away anymore. Who would take them? Who will change my heart? Who will give me the power to change? Is it all up to me? I like Hinduism belief that we all have the diving within us. I suppose LDS theology recognizes that we are children of God.. but do we really believe that God is IN us? I now believe that is more accurate. But I am not gonna lie, it was easy thinking that someone else was going to save me, that I could pray to change and if I didn’t it was “God’s fault”. haha Ok, that is not 100% accurate of my former beliefs, but close. I can’t lie though, I do energy healing and still use “The Savior” as a personal healing source. I could use white light, or a white dove, or whatever, but His face has become so “real” to me. So familiarly tied with Love, Healing, Light and God. I don’t think I want to get rid of that (at least right now). I really find peace when I think of His loving face. I no longer have the guilt that He died on the cross for me though, or that I am only perfect through Him. I just see him as so enlightened that he has no judgment what soever and that he was trying to teach us to become One with ourselves, God and the world… even if he is fictitious He is beautiful to me.
For all the Muslim world’s achievements, they failed in other regards. They failed to maintain pre-existing irrigation systems to the level that the Greeks, Romans, and Persians had, leading to desertification. They also failed to take Europe by force, despite having numerous opportunities to do so. They also frowned upon representative art in many cases (not always), and their women’s rights were not above Christian Europe’s. Remember the Renaissance came when Europe rediscovered classical knowledge via the Muslims, some of which they took beyond Islam.
There was no Muslim barrier protecting the Slavs from the Mongol onslaught.
The Christian world has, on the other hand produced the following, eventually: * Banning of slavery
* Religious freedom
* Modern (not ancient!) democracy.
* Feminism.
* The Renaissance.
* Modern style science and rationalism, even skepticism
* The industrial revolution
* Modern environmentalism
* The agricultural revolution
* Steam power, electricity
* Flight (twice)
* Modern printing (beyond China’s, long story)
* Egalitarianism
* Modern transport
* Modern banking and capitalism
* Communism (!)
* Broadcasting
* Artificial intelligence
* Space flight
* Discovery of Antarctica
While some of these were reinvented/discovered, a lot of them in their modern form come out of Christianity or the post-Christian world.
I suppose I should have started two different threads here: one on the literalness/metaphoricalness of the Jesus story, and one comparing the secular efficacy of Christianity with other religions. The technological success of Western Christianity, unfortunately, can be traced to conquest and empire building done in the name of Christ. We all really know that the western countries involved were more concerned with power and control of the resources the lands they conquered could provide. If it hadn’t been for empirialism and the industrial revolution it spawned, who knows where we’d be today, technologically speaking. The real shame is how people used religion as a guise to allow them to do horrible things for money and power.
Not completely. Italian and German small statelets provided much innovation in technology, while Spain, Portugal and Russia were not leaders in technological terms. (Russia became a scientific power long after most of Europe)
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