- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Heber13 wrote:
I think my sins need to be paid for….
Sin is an interesting idea. I think that misguided living causes suffering (that’s my translation of your quoted sentence above). Sins (misguided living) need (causes) to be paid for (suffering).
I think that reflecting suffering back at the perpetrator is the way of the natural man. Unfortunately, the natural man also erroneously attributes the same tendency to the Father of Spirits. But in reality the Father of Spirits neither suffers nor reflects suffering back at us perpetrators. He merely stands in harmony with the Truth that sin creates suffering in the perpetrator more surely than it does in the victim.
I think Jesus shows us how a willing, powerful, and enlightened victim has the power to turn the suffering into joy and the sin into freedom, even for the perpetrator.
Tom Haws wrote:I think that misguided living causes suffering (that’s my translation of your quoted sentence above).
I like that translation! Very Buddhist-like.
🙂 Old-Timer wrote:I think our mistakes need to be “paid for” in some sense. I really do. I just don’t know exactly what that sense is and if it involves a literal transfer of guilt and pain – or if the symbolism of the transfer is what matters.
I believe our sins are paid for by us. What we sow so shall we reap. I strongly believe in karma and may be one of the few LDS persons who believes in reincarnation. We only commit sin because of a lack of understanding. The way to get understanding is to sin. You get the benefit of doing the sin, then reaping the rewards. Later on, you get to see the sin from another perspective; often times when someone in your immediate circle goes through the same thing. You then get to use your understanding to assist them if you choose. It’s a beautiful thing really. Painful at times, but beautiful.
Back to the original post, I was once where you are. I think what Jesus actually did was deliver information on how to overcome death, how to heal and to show us how our thoughts are powerful creations (as a man thinketh). When Jesus conquered death I believe it meant that he no longer had to incarnate in a body on this earth. He had overcome temptations, sin and was free from the bondage of attachment to earthly things.
I can not decide if Jesus was savior or not. I see no need for someone else to pay for my mistakes. This theology only works if it requires you to be perfectly sinless to enter heaven. Why can not God just let you in if you are basically a good person? So if Jesus was savior it is something beyond my comprehension to understand the need, but I am open to the reality of it. I kind of like the line of thought that God would let you in, but you feeling unworthy would not allow yourself to enter. I really don’t like the idea that allowing a sinful creature into his realm would somehow reduce his glory, I would argue for the opposite. So for those who cannot get over their own sinfulness without some external redeeming force — I understand how the atonement is powerful and life changing. For those who feel an innate forgiveness coming from god I think the effect can be similar in many important ways.
The key to me from my experience is learning to forgive. I think when you learn how a weak and fallible human can approach unconditional forgiveness you have to wonder how much more a perfectly loving God can forgive.
Orson wrote:I kind of like the line of thought that God would let you in, but you feeling unworthy would not allow yourself to enter.
But then why would you feel unworthy? Is it because everyone on Earth told you that you were a sinner? And what would it say about those that felt worthy?
1. I feel my Savior’s love In all the world around me.
His Spirit warms my soul
Through ev’rything I see.
2. I feel my Savior’s love;
Its gentleness enfolds me,
And when I kneel to pray,
My heart is filled with peace.
3. I feel my Savior’s love
And know that he will bless me.
I offer him my heart;
My shepherd he will be.
4. I’ll share my Savior’s love
By serving others freely.
In serving I am blessed.
In giving I receive.
Chorus
He knows I will follow him,
Give all my life to him.
I feel my Savior’s love,
The love he freely gives me.
In reading this post this song filled my head (and heart). My mental concept of a compassionate Savior, one who knows me completely and is more forgiving of my weaknesses than I am myself, allows me to taste unconditional love. BTW- I feel my Savior’s love, the love he freely gives me.
Brown wrote:Orson wrote:I kind of like the line of thought that God would let you in, but you feeling unworthy would not allow yourself to enter.
But then why would you feel unworthy? Is it because everyone on Earth told you that you were a sinner? And what would it say about those that felt worthy?
I see it more as different people having different ideas and feelings. Some people are just hard on themselves, and others seemingly have no remorse for anything. Yes, there may be some social influence to our feelings and self-concept. I would say there is also a large personality component to it.
On the other hand, in this case social conditioning probably plays a bigger role.
Edit: Interestingly, I think in a perfect world religion would work to ease both of these extremes. It would help the self-condemned feel forgiven, and cause the unremorseful to feel more compassion for the victims of their abuse.
I wish I could go back to having a simple faith in a literal Savior. I have become distrustful that organized religion can offer me anything more that a time-tested and well-crafted myth that may work for a lot of people. I flatter myself that I can detect myth in pretty much everything I have been taught. For now I have to be satisfied with extracting from what I see as myth and symbol those things that might lead me in the direction I want to go. And maybe in the end I will come full circle and find that believing in the power of the myth and believing in the ‘reality’ are one in the same. Enoch wrote:…I am trying to verbalize my thoughts on Jesus and the Atonement. I love the *idea* of Jesus as Atoning Son.
My biggest hangup is that I am skeptical about the need for the Atonement.Yes we are flawed, selfish and lazy; but are sin, mercy, and justice really cosmic forces that need to be overcome by the death of a God?…Is there really some cosmic road block preventing us from overcoming our mistakes on our own, damning us to our frailties and faults without the intervention of a crucified stranger?…I love the idea of Jesus as Atoning Savior…And I love the man Jesus. I love his courage to “live as if the Kingdom has already come”… But all this for me is symbol and myth…I do not know if the individual Jesus called Christ is really our Savior and God.Personally, I don’t think it really matters that much either way because there is no way to know for sure what really happened at this point so all anyone can do is guess. That’s why I like to hold out hope that Jesus wasn’t just another man and/or completely exaggerated myth and I just don’t see any good reason why anyone that wants to believe should really feel compelled to have serious doubts about it.
If it makes people feel better to believe in things like the atonement and resurrection and they haven’t really lost anything as a direct result of these particular beliefs then I don’t see the problem with believing these things whether they turn out to be true or not. If skeptics feel like they need to doubt and dissect everything then that’s their problem in my opinion and I don’t want to get caught up in that in this case because basically all we really have here is the word of the people that originally told this story versus pure speculation against the idea long after the fact and there is no convincing evidence to dispute it.
DA, I am trying to work out a “it has power either way” approach building on the reality you express, that we really can’t know for sure what is true, as we cannot perceive anything beyond ourselves. The intersection of myth and experience creates its own truth. Ooh, I like that.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:If it makes people feel better to believe in things like the atonement and resurrection and they haven’t really lost anything as a direct result of these particular beliefs then I don’t see the problem with believing these things whether they turn out to be true or not.
Amen brother!
That is totally the point, IMO. For the vast majority of people and circumstances, it really is at worst at harmless net good. I believe there is a LOT of power in the idea of atonement and a Savior Jesus Christ. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is someone within that framework going off course in a direction that harms their self or others. To use an extreme hypothetical, I think we have to attempt to disabuse people of their “faith” if their view of the atonement prompts them to burn witches at the stake, or something like that. If a literal belief is causing literal harm, then I can justify stepping in with skepticism.
Sorry I have disappeared everyone. I noticed this thread and wanted to post some fuller thoughts I wrote up. Hope everyone is hanging in there! Hi Enoch, I especially like how you explained,
“Isn’t living the Atonement more important than believing it literally?” This summarizes how I feel about it. The spirit, not the letter.
I read a book about the symbolism of Jesus’ life & how Christ was not his last name, but what he became & tried to teach us to become.
I believe God is love… not fear, not shame, not pickyness. God is PURE LOVE.
Pure love is the best of all possibilities – in the big picture… one of which is the gift of choice – agency – so we can learn, through trial & error.
So, if God is love, he would not kick us when we’re down. I believe we’re punished by our sins, not for them.
Sin is incorrect thoughts & related feelings & behavior.
If I run full force at a brick wall – God won’t stop me, but he won’t kick me for my harmful decisions either.
Joseph Smith taught we are are own condemners.
And I was surprised to read in this month’s visiting teaching message, JS also taught “…
you will be responsible for your own sins; it is a desirable honor that you should so walk before our heavenly Father as to save yourselves; we are all responsible to God for the manner we improve the light & wisdom given by our Lord to enable us to save ourselves.”Isn’t that amazing?? I also believe like energy/spirituality attracts like… You know, when you stand by someone, sometimes you can just sense how they are… some you want to be around & some you just don’t feel good being around.
So, we don’t “go” to heaven or hell (or any of the kingdoms)… we GROW to them… by how we think & the related feelings & behavior.
Who can save us from our thoughts? US!
Although, I do think we have many saviors – helpers both in body & spirit.
I think Christianity’s message has been warped over the years… motivated by political powers.
I can see that it’s comforting to believe in a personal Savior, especially when life feels hard.
Yet, using a scapegoat, believing God would punish us ontop of the consequences of sin…
…is denying our own spiritual responsibility & denying the true way we can be saved.
I definitely buy into thy symbolism of a Savior, and all his teachings. I never tackled the question of his actual existence as the literal Son of God, however. I just accepted it because it was everywhere. In a way, I don’t really care much to tackle that question. His message is good to believe in, as is the prospect of forgiveness of sins for righteous behavior.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.