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I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, just the first 40 minutes or so….but I’ll say this from reading some of the other comments on this board. I totally understand his desire to leave the world of negativity. He admits that his own faith in the Church was destroyed and he even questioned the existence of God. But ultimately, his personality is one where he seems to want to build rather than destroy. His original intent on creating Mormon Stories and all the pdocasts, conferences etc..was all about building, finding solutions providing support…and it slowly morphed into something more and more negative for him that kept feeding on itself. He reached a point where he was tired of the negativity and wanted to build. I understand and respect that.
I think his choice of words in condemning a “middle way” is unfortunate and I totally understand why many of those who followed him feel thrown under the bus. I don’t think he meant it that way (not sure, haven’t listened to the whole thing yet). However, like it or, he IS a middle way mormon and will be for the rest of his life. He will never defend JS polyandry, he will always have a different view on the BOA than your standard TBM. He doesn’t fully agree with the church on feminist issues or LGBT issues. He realizes that there is a messiness to church history, culture, doctrine and practices…and yet for his own reasons…he is deciding to go back. The only way for him to be an active member is to carve out a middle way for himself.
little john, what did you think about his comments about wife swapping, drugs, women kissing women etc at the MS conferences? Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Wayfarer’s post at NOM was excellent. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:little john, what did you think about his comments about wife swapping, drugs, women kissing women etc at the MS conferences?
He just said it was happening by a few. He even said he wasn’t judging those involved…he just didn’t want to be the instigator. Just going to the one NOM gathering I can’t say it is beyond belief. Heck…if left to my own devices I can’t …lets just say ‘but by the grace of god go I’
There are times I would love to say ‘wife swapping saved my Marriage! Ok ….maybe not that far…
But in my one gathering most were drinking…many to excess. I was raised in construction so to me no big shocker…but if I organized the event… I might feel different
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I will say I think the last 30 minutes is the most meaningful. The rest is mostly the journey. Those of us who were not there are likely getting a revisionist version…that is just human…those who were there will have a different impression that us new folks can’t understand. Does give an interesting parallel to the beginning of the church The last 30 is John telling what he believes and hopes to do. I had an uncomfortable moment when I found out he was making a living off of this and he just be happens to be close to finishing his schooling that he says the programs paid for….but I am cynical that way
also john, I think you went to an exmo/NOM gathering? I agree with you on that….I am not interested in large gatherings…but I have made some friends…and enjoy visiting over a beer.
I have seen pot smoking at MS gatherings…but so what?
And that is a far cry from wife swapping and women on women…
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I am more frustrated than angry. I wish Sundance would weigh in.
He is the “leader” of Portland MS group.
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cwald wrote:I supported mormonstories and stayLDS financially for a reason…a cause…
Well hell…I guess I wasted my money.
cwald, I haven’t spent much time on MS. However, I am grateful to have found StayLDS. I spent about a decade and a half completely alone in my faith crisis. I knew there where lots of ex-mormons, but found no dialog I could sustain with them, because I, alone in the world as far as I knew, was trying to stay in the church without the faith that had once bound me to it. It was a god-send to find StayLDS, and to learn that there were others in the same boat as me. While we all have different ways of managing our individual situations at church, it is very very helpful to hear from others, or to share ideas with others. I have learned much. For example, I learned about the 14Fs from you, cwald. That’s important, because that kind of dialog has been an aid to me in separating out my concerns about the church into a pretty well-defined (now) box… and doing that helps me to see the good in a separate box. I can manage the bad stuff in the one box, while enjoying the good stuff in the other.
So… FWIW… thank you for your support of the cause.
:shifty: cwald wrote:I am more frustrated than angry.
I wish Sundance would weigh in.
He is the “leader” of Portland MS group.
Cwald…it was a NOM gathering though most were “we are out” Mormons. Also, I think Portland is a bit more radical than most.
That being said I am a member of many FB groups and you don’t see much action at all on the Portland Mormon Stories community but the other support communities are all a buzz. Much of the conversation includes talk of drinking, etc. And to be frank…if we think being gay is not bad than girl/girl kissing would be expected at a conference about middle way. To you pot smoking no biggie, to me it would shock me a bit, to me beer/booze not shocking..my wife would crap a brick
John didn’t make it sound like lots were doing it….just a small minority…so not sure why it seems offensive. He seemed to imply he saw the behavior..not sure why he would lie and he didn’t condemn it…just said he was uncomfortable to be sponsoring it indirectly.
I think the truth comes out in the end. He can’t handle the orgs anymore. He is not interested in flogging the church for its foibles anymore…it comes to nothing …they wont come out and say “we were wrong”. He expressed empathy for the GA’s stating that he now knows what its like trying to run a huge org and have things done in your name. He says something like his the church does crazy stuff, so do the other churches, so does science, so do businesses…but they all do good things too…his org was the same.
Again..I was not a contemporary. I know CWald is a great guy, and a fair guy so I do not discount his feelings…I literally have 3 months and a podcast to judge with where CWald has years and has invested time and money. I just had a lot of feelings resonate with the podcast and think that JohnD just saved me a 10 year walk. I am still a nut. I want to do crazy things some times and I am glad for the message to not do anything stupid…give things time to settle…I may want to keep most of the things that were dear to me last year…they may turn out to be precious again…and many already have begun to shine again…unfortnuately one of those things is not church history
:shifty: cwald wrote:Wayfarer’s post at NOM was excellent.
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I found it on the 6th page. It was indeed.
John. I think that is a fair response and I respect it. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
mackay1: do you have the questionnaire that was used by Dehlin in his research? Is it available somewhere? I’m interested in the psychometrics of the instrument, whether the questions were biased, etc. John’s return to the Church seems outwardly to be done at a bit of duress–he was walking a fine line when it comes to the Church’s definition of apostasy in terms of potential negative impact on others. It seems logical that some kind of disavowal could be a condition of repentence? (moderate if needed)
As to faith reconstruction, it seems from his stated views on the nature of the Godhead that he is currently heterodox but wishing to become orthoprax, while perhaps disentangling himself from a movement that is heavily connected with his name.
I am grateful to John to some of the fruits of his work, and definitely hopeful for any influence he might have in improving things for LGBT members. I wish him happiness and peace!
cwald wrote:I am more frustrated than angry.
I wish Sundance would weigh in.
He is the “leader” of Portland MS group.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
Wow… I’ve been called out of the closet…..
Yeah.. I have some pretty strong feelings about this. Let me collect my thoughts. I’ve interacted with John several times over the years, and have seen both him and J Larson go through various stages of this. I have some opinions, but cwald, I’ll reply back in an hour or so. K?
Wow.. I think this may be my maiden post on staylds. Stunning lack of drama for a post. But alas….
I do always claim the right to change my mind. I’ve been wrong before, and will be wrong again. BRB
johnh wrote::shifty: cwald wrote:I am more frustrated than angry.
I wish Sundance would weigh in.
He is the “leader” of Portland MS group.
Cwald…it was a NOM gathering though most were “we are out” Mormons. Also, I think Portland is a bit more radical than most.
:
MUST MAKE FIRST POST ON STAYLDS…. Epic moment here.
Welcome, sundance!
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