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Ha! I call for Sundance and there he is. 
I liked what you said at NOM. please don’t feel pressure to post here if you are not comfortable.
I’ve been to a few small MS/NOM gathering and a few large ones. Like you said at NOM, I’ve seen lots of beer, and some pot. I didn’t think it was a big deal…especially since it is pretty well legal here in Oregon…anyone can get a card to smoke and grow.
But, like you mentioned…never seen women kissing or wife swapping.
WTH?
Anyway…the MS group was a life saver for me…that first time, we literally drove 300 miles to salem and spent two nights, just to meet someone to talk to that would understand the horrible experience we had just endured. Thanks Sundance for the invite and INSISTING we meet up.
Anyway…I appreciated MS at the time, and will continue to support the effort Sundance if you think it is worth while.
If not, well, i’ll just meet up with a few folks like yourself, mom3 etc when I’m in the Willamette. Little John and jwald and I had a very pleasant evening. I think it was valuable to all? Good conversation. Good beer. And believe it or not…no drugs and wild orgies.
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Still have to listen to this, as I haven’t. I know (at least some of the stories) what John D is talking about with people who went completely off the rails, left spouses, spouse swapping, committed adultery, abused alcohol or drugs. Without revealing specifics, he told me some things that were pretty shocking, and I’m not easily shocked. Some people very close to him really lost it. Even when John was out of the church he was always bothered by that. He’s not responsible for it, obviously, but he does feel an overwhelming empathy for others and is prone to guilt. That’s why he reaches out to people as he has.
Anyway, I haven’t heard him “trash” the middle way, which is interesting (I’ll listen for it), but I do think he still believes what he said in “Why I Stay” – that EVERYone is a cafeteria Mormon whether they know it or not. That’s simply the truth. There is literally no one, including all the current and historical Q15, who is 100% aligned, lock-step with some party line viewpoint. You can’t correlate people’s thoughts, just their manuals, and then those manuals are subject to interpretation like all writing is.
I prefer to think there is a higher way, not a middle way. Middle way sounds like you can’t make up your mind (which I’m OK with – personally I think making up your mind in almost any matter is foolhardy). I think you can let go of anger and disappointment and betrayal and find the positive and the beneficial and personal growth. People can do that in the church or out of the church because it is about who you become, not what institution you belong to. I really believe John’s just getting over his own feelings. What’s the difference to anyone but John where he ends up?
I do empathize with CWald though on two things: 1) if “middle way” is being trashed I don’t think that’s fair, but I’m willing to chalk it up to a misspeak, and 2) some of the ventures / activism are things people put money into. Those who put money in might feel it was a contract for future actions that now aren’t going to happen.
I truly wish everyone would cut John some slack. Like all of us, he’s doing the best he can for himself and his family. Those who celebrated when he was out should examine closely why they feel so differently now that he’s back in – and vice versa. And there are probably a few who would love to crow about him being back in who likewise don’t know what they are talking about, not having walked in his shoes.
Remember…I said I could possibly be corrupted with wild orgies if situation was right are there a lot of blind women in Corvallis ? as that’s the first situation that would have to happen I had a great time last time and I put Feb 15 on my calendar..should see if Sundance and anne and others might want to go
In fairness, I don’t know whether the stories he shared were at events or individuals who went off the rails. I thought it was just individuals, but there were lots of meet ups over the years, and who knows what people will do? The only event related thing was something I heard from someone else (not related to John D at all) about a sacrament tray filled with Vodka shots. To me, that’s mocking. Drinking Vodka, people are adults, so whatever. Putting it in a sacrament tray is mocking what others hold to be sacred. I wouldn’t mock Buddhism or Hinduism or Catholicism. That sounds like those missionaries who made fun of the Catholic altar to me. Not cool.
Delete Just keep us in the loop! Love to hang out again! Delete. Sorry for the late posts. Just got home from work…and started on that mild beverage that Ray suggested. It is helping my sour mood considerably.
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Great comments, Hawk. Everyone, as an admin, I need to point out that there is a PM option for things not related to the posts. Please use it.
🙂 Old-Timer wrote:Great comments, Hawk.
Everyone, as an admin, I need to point out that there is a PM option for things not related to the posts. Please use it.
🙂 Well. I thought about that…but decided this thread IS about MORMONSTORIES Facebook groups…so I left it on the thread.
Just in case there was other staylds folks who may want to continue MS now that JD is done with it.
The entire point…do we have a “middle way” support group still? Or does JD dennouncement of wife swapping and drugs and women on women at MS gatherings mean we disband?
Does that make sense Ray?
If not, okay…I’ll delete it all and send PMs.
But, I think there are some hidden middle way folks HERE (cough – Ann, church033. – cough – cough) who are aching to talk but are worried about coming out of the woodwork…and this JD debacle is not going to help…you know…because of all the wild orgies and such…
I’m feeling a little better about life tonight…a beer does that to me.
Thanks for the patience.
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As I said, nothing about StayLDS changes. I added a
🙂 /
Okay, I just finished listening to all three parts. Honestly I didn’t hear him trashing the middle way, at least not what I define the middle way (or personal way, or higher way) to be. He talked about getting out of a negative space and I think that is the right move to make. As Hawk said I can see how some people will find his new direction frustrating, when it doesn’t serve their personal needs at this time. It is disappointing when we think we can count on someone’s help and then they become unavailable to us, but I think when we stop and take time to reflect we understand that people need to take care of themselves first, or they eventually won’t have anything to offer anyone.
My overall impression of the story is very positive from where I currently sit. Not because John is returning to activity and that’s what everyone needs to do, but because I think it opens up a little more space for all of us that don’t know if we’re really wanted. His experiences with both an apostle and his stake president telling him “we want you, we value you” can go a long way in encouraging others that find themselves in a similar place. I realize it may cause even more frustration for some who long for this experience but have only seen the opposite, and I am sorry for that, but for the questioning souls in the shadows who don’t want to bail but don’t know if they should even try to stay — I hope it can give them a new seed of hope.
Quote:I do empathize with CWald though on two things: 1) if “middle way” is being trashed I don’t think that’s fair, but I’m willing to chalk it up to a misspeak, and 2) some of the ventures / activism are things people put money into. Those who put money in might feel it was a contract for future actions that now aren’t going to happen.
John showed up on MD and left several comments and him becoming fully active…regarding middle way and MS stories of inappropriate behavior that scared him back into activity. I think it is fairly safe to he has confirmed and validated TBM’s fears disillusion about what happens to apostates once they lose the spirit and leave the church.
It is not good.
I don’t care that he is fully active and going to church…at all.
I wish he would just…well…not blame the actions of a few on his decision. Why couldn’t he have just said that he decided it was the best thing for him and his family and fade quietly away from the spotlight.
I wouldn’t get away with it here…you know…”the bad actions of a few church leaders is why I left the church.”
Is it permissible to quote John from the MD boards? I’ve just updated my notes on the podcast (post 3 of the thread on page 1). Here: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3951&p=52291#p52291 My comments on part 2: To be honest I tuned out a little over the first section. It sounded like a bunch of Utah valley egos jostling for position. It almost trivialised the whole question of making mormonism work and finding ways to stay. It felt like it was being kicked around as a bit of sabre rattling and posturing. This isn’t a game for me. It’s a soul-wrenching, terrifying experience and this sounded a bit like a game of ‘who’s got the biggest pair!’ Having said that, if I knew someone was going to write a hit-piece on me, I’d probably object too.
Regarding the immorality at/after the conferences and John’s own thoughts on considering changing his standards. The behaviour of some people after they leave reminds me why some people really need to be Mormons. It affirms the comment in Sunday School that some people say that if they didn’t have the church they would be ‘immoral fiends.’ I am bothered by that attitude, but I also consider it one reason why God needs to give some of his children the gift of an ‘absolute dogma.’ A clear Black and White. Some people can only cope with it being one way or no way while others are able to navigate through life with uncertainties while still living by the principle of ‘do unto others…’
I also think it’s a real shame he discussed the immorality at all. Especially as it was among a minority. While it excuses him leaving the conferences, it also does a disservice to those trying to find a middle way or find reasons to stay. It becomes very easy ‘ammo’ for a TBM leader. “Don’t associate with those wicked doubters else you’ll be sleeping around.” It especially hurts the spouse of a doubter because it makes it sound like their partner is going off to the conference for a party and an affair. Unhelpful in my opinion.
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