- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Quote:
it also does a disservice to those trying to find a middle way or find reasons to stay. It becomes very easy ‘ammo’ for a TBM leader. “Don’t associate with those wicked doubters else you’ll be sleeping around.” It especially hurts the spouse of a doubter because it makes it sound like their partner is going off to the conference for a party and an affair. Unhelpful in my opinion.
Which is the damage done…it just validated my entire families actions and fears and biases the last two years.
Losing family hurts…and this just got much more personal for me. Remember…it was my association with John Dehlin and MS that got me “divorced” from my family to begin with. I promise you, my TBM family will be talking about JD this weekend around the dinner table. I won’t be there…haven’t for a couple years now.
cwald wrote:Is it permissible to quote John from the MD boards?
I don’t know, but here’s a quote direct from the page where the podcast was posted. This is from John Dehlin:
http://mormonstories.org/john-dehlin-and-faith-reconstruction/ Quote:I am a totally flawed and imperfect messenger, and I’m just doing the best that I can to tell the story that I experienced.
But I have seen a heavy dose of what I consider to be very reckless behavior in the post-Mormon world. In at least 4 or 5 cities I saw it close up. Wife swapping. Open marriages. Drug use. Adultery. Divorce. Sadness. Anger. I’m only being honest. You maybe didn’t see it, and I am not tal all trying to say that these things were common w/ most conference and community participants. But they were common/frequent enough to scare the crap out of me.And to be clear — I don’t sit in judgment over people who engage in these things. I honestly believe that everyone needs to live their life the way they feel called, and that sometimes, in some crazy way, these types of things may work for some people. I don’t judge them.
In addition, I absolutely believe that just like some people’s lives are deeply blessed by church affiliation, I know for an almost certainty that some people absolutely must leave the church to become healthy. It is totally a bi-directional, very personal decision…and that “happiness” and “wellness” exists in both directions.
But I do believe that morality (whatever it is) matters. I do believe that integrity matters. I do believe that families matter. I believe that marriages matter. That parenthood matters. That mental health matters. That adults should be responsible. I believe that anger can decay the soul if you sit in it too long. Most importantly, I believe that if I’m going to be influential in taking someone’s religion away from them, I better also be willing/able to provide a dang good replacement for what these people have lost.
And so all I’m saying is….I saw enough pain, misery, divorce, sadness, anger to last a lifetime. Close up. And I saw enough doubt, confusion, fear, “immorality” to give me pause…to ask myself, “Are people really better off by what you’re doing?” — and I couldn’t answer yes. In the end, it felt spiritually and emotionally wrong for me to keep those things up. Not to mention the fact that it all almost destroyed MY family…which it truly did.So I’m not at all saying that all or even most ex-Mormons are immoral people. And I absolutely believe that the majority of good, ethical, moral people in the world are non-Mormon (just by sheer numbers).
What I am saying is that in spite of all the good we did w/ the conferences and communities, at the end of the day I saw enough sadness, anger, immorality, pain and darkness that I did not feel good about continuing on with it.I don’t deny you of your experience, but please don’t deny me of mine. I’ll end with this. If you know of someone, or a group of people, that are capable of creating a secular organization that blesses peoples’ lives more than Mormonism, I heartily and sincerely encourage you (and others) to build that organization. I might even donate to it. I believe that the world desperately needs an organization (or multiple organizations) to replace religion for those who are no longer affiliated (See Alain De Botton’s Atheism 2.0 for what I mean here). I so totally encourage you and others to go build that organization. Heck…I might even join it someday. All I’m saying is that I tried to create something like that, and was not successful…and instead, worry that
I may have done more damage than good. But by all means…please pick up the torch/baton, carry it forward, and prove me wrong. If you can create such an organization, I will be one of your biggest fans. And I mean this sincerely. It would have had so much more credibility if he had simply said, “this is what is best for me and my family” and returned to church. It would have also carried a far greater torch to the doubters AND the believers that someone could go through a crisis and resolve their issues. Instead it just leaves a negative impression on both parties.
cwald wrote:Quote:it also does a disservice to those trying to find a middle way or find reasons to stay. It becomes very easy ‘ammo’ for a TBM leader. “Don’t associate with those wicked doubters else you’ll be sleeping around.” It especially hurts the spouse of a doubter because it makes it sound like their partner is going off to the conference for a party and an affair. Unhelpful in my opinion.
Which is the damage done…it just validated my entire families actions and fears and biases the last two years.
Losing family hurts…and this just got much more personal for me. Remember…it was my association with John Dehlin and MS that got me “divorced” from my family to begin with. I promise you, my TBM family will be talking about JD this weekend around the dinner table. I won’t be there…haven’t for a couple years now.
And that’s the biggest tragedy of the Louis Midgley style ‘staylds/NOMs are the anti-christ’ message, that it convinces believers that they should reject you based on your beliefs.
John actually had potentially a few very positive messages in his podcast. But at 3 hours long… people will only remember the headlines and soundbites.
Which is easier for bloggers and gossips to share in this 140 character twitter style world.
“John abandons Mormon Stories due to wife-swapping, weed smoking exploits”
or “John realised that he either had to make Mormonism work for him or leave it entirely. He saw the value in it for him personally and the unity it could bring his family, and he is trying to make it work, even with his doubts and muddled faith.”
I am at least as upset with the “poor souls” that engaged in the negative behavior. For years I have been frustrated with the disaffected that “let go” of their previous morals, for the very reasons that you state — it only reinforces the stereotype. Drawing attention to their actions is secondary.
I do understand the personal turmoil etc. that feeds these actions, but the effect is still frustrating.
Yeah. Well said Mackay. Okay. I’m done with John Dehlin. The conversation is over for me. He wants out of the middle way and spotlight and doesn’t want to be the super star? Fine. Go away and find peace brother.
John Dehlin…Please. Stay off the bloggernacle… Prove to us that it not an ego thing. And I, for one, as a middle way mormon whose life was damn near tore apart by the church and family, because of association with your name…will leave you alone. Choose your path. And live with it.
Peace.
CWALD…I had not thought about it from that perspective….thanks for sharing..That really brings home for me the perspective personal impact. I also appreciate Mackays insight here…there are a lot of nice statements for the out-of-context quote machines to give ammo to the Anti-midway-LDS-ites to use to terrify and stir up the TBM crowd
I’m lucky in that I don’t have the same investment. Reformation? I think it’s already happening but slowly.
Bad things happen in and out of the church.
We should be celebrating our diversity. We need to build a new style Mormonism which allows for this, and helps people around issues.
I think our past shows us a valuable lesson…good people who are full of flaws can still be spiritual and inspired. I hope that we eventually learn that a persons specific sins don’t matter to anyone but them. Each one of us has spiritual gifts and if we spend as much time working to understand those gifts as we have stressing about what is proper behaviour to be worthy and learning how to deal with shame and guilt we will see an exponential growth in spirituality.
This would also eliminate much of the concerns about what old leaders said and did…..not to mention Bishops and other leaders could spend more time as shepards and less time as judges of Israel
John the Becraz-ed
John is a complicated person, which is part of why he has been able to have the impact(s) he has had – both good and bad. Sound familiar?
I hope John finds the peace for which he has been searching for so long. I hope he doesn’t beat himself up for a long time over thoughts of what he might have done wrongly or the unintended consequences of his actions. I hope he doesn’t think of himself in the same terms as Alma still thought of himself long after his youthful mistakes. I honor John’s decisions in the same sense that I honor the decisions of everyone here – as his own attempt to follow his own conscience in the midst of his own life.
That is an inherently messy process, and, while I hurt for those who are hurt by this latest move and honor that reaction, as well, at the heart of it all, I really hope John finds the peace and happiness he seeks.
Old-Timer wrote:John is a complicated person, which is part of why he has been able to have the impact(s) he has had – both good and bad.
Sound familiar?
Please tell me you’re not comparing John Dehlin to Joseph Smith???
One created an organisation which quickly degenerated into sexual debauchery. The other… is John Dehlin.
🙂 No, but seriously, you’re not really suggesting John Dehlin is remotely similar to the visionary founder of our church?
mackay, I think lots of people who have a large-scale impact on lots of people are “remotely similar” to each other – and, in many cases, not so remotely. This wasn’t a comparison of John to Joseph; it was a comparison of John to other people who have a large-scale impact on a large number of people. Joseph fits within that category (at a higher level than John), but the comparison was to a group of people, not one person. Fwiw, I have compared Joseph Smith to Jesus, of Nazareth, on more than one occasion – but I also have compared Hitler to Jesus. When I make comparisons, especially comparisons that might cause some people to react emotionally, I always try to be very precise in those comparisons – and I absolutely see John and Joseph as being similar in the specific way I described them. There are degrees of similarity in every comparison, and I didn’t equate them as being the same – but I definitely see a similarity, just as I see the possibility of the very focused similarity I see as a potential between John and Alma.
Frankly, I see that same similarity in most people – even those who participate here, including you. All of us tend to be much more complicated than other people (and often we) realize – and all of tend to be capable of both good and bad.
I think we need to be careful of not being so wary of comparisons to “idols” (and I use that term only to mean “people whom we put on an extreme pedestal – either good or bad”) that we can’t make legitimate and instructive points about common traits.
mackay11 wrote:
One created an organisation which quickly degenerated into sexual debauchery. The other… is John Dehlin.🙂 +1 Lol
Old-Timer wrote:As I said, nothing about StayLDS changes.
I added a
🙂 /
I hope that is the case. It has made me wonder if StayLDS will run it’s course in the near future. I am just getting use to this new way of living and one more faith crisis might not be very good for me at the present.
Before commenting on JD I need some time to think or maybe stop thinking, I’ve listened to almost every MS podcast and the last one. They helped me, hurt me, gave me hope, made me laugh and made me cry. That’s all I want to say for now. I finally listened to a lot of the podcasts. I kind of missed out on half of the 2nd installment. Couldn’t get it to load properly. I didn’t hear any trashing of the “middle way” in there. I thought the Frodo analogy was an interesting one, spot on in some ways, and his openness about not having done enough of his own soul work to carry that burden without being harmed and eventually overwhelmed by it. I also don’t think he was saying anywhere that everyone who grapples with faith goes off the deep end, but he saw a lot of people who do. Personally, I tend to think it’s the black & white thinkers – those who are unfortunately barring Cwald from the family fit into that camp. When they leave, all bets are off. It’s all or nothing for them. I don’t fathom that line of thinking at all. There are so many things I would not do. But here’s the scary part to me. These are the same types who would agree to blood atonement or polygamy or a variety of other huge asks from leadership. Where does our own spiritual revelation come in for them? Where does our own guidance?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.