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hawkgrrrl wrote:
I finally listened to a lot of the podcasts. I kind of missed out on half of the 2nd installment. Couldn’t get it to load properly. I didn’t hear any trashing of the “middle way” in there. I thought the Frodo analogy was an interesting one, spot on in some ways, and his openness about not having done enough of his own soul work to carry that burden without being harmed and eventually overwhelmed by it.
I also don’t think he was saying anywhere that everyone who grapples with faith goes off the deep end, but he saw a lot of people who do. Personally, I tend to think it’s the black & white thinkers – those who are unfortunately barring Cwald from the family fit into that camp. When they leave, all bets are off. It’s all or nothing for them. I don’t fathom that line of thinking at all. There are so many things I would not do. But here’s the scary part to me. These are the same types who would agree to blood atonement or polygamy or a variety of other huge asks from leadership. Where does our own spiritual revelation come in for them? Where does our own guidance?
Exactly. I think that’s why Mormonisms ‘absolutism’ is a blessing for many people. Just as it is for people of many other faiths. They can’t be trusted with their own independence. Maybe I can’t either. Maybe that’s why I’m clinging onto mormonism.
People can’t be independent and be fully human – and that is deeply embedded in Mormon theology, as well, in its unique definition of godhood. The issue for me is where to place my dependence – and how much independence to preserve. It’s finding my proper balance within that particular paradox.
I thought this exchange between Kish and Wayfarer at MD was spot on and needs to be heard here…hope I’m not out of line Wayfarer…but if there was ever a need for a cross post…this is it. Quote:Kishkumen wrote:… I love Lou Midgley’s panegyrical retrospective of Nibley’s career. makes me emotional every time I read it. Midgley is a learned man, indeed. Highly intelligent. And when he is educating instead of throwing hand-grenades at others, he is a pleasure and a real education to read. It I love Peterson’s work on Nephi’s Asherah. Again, here is someone with a great deal of intelligence and erudition that can inspire. Hamblin’s teaching on Heavenly Ascent and the temple in the classroom was truly inspiring. What I have consistently disliked, and fought against, was this bullying of other people in the faith. And, frankly, this bullying often had an ideological undercurrent.
All of this talk of ideology is the last thing the LDS community needs. All of the contention and savaging of each other is not what the LDS community needs. The so-called “liberal” LDS community is also guilty of bashing. I am guilty of bashing. Probably the best guys out there are the ones who do not get involved in the fist-a-cuffs. They are the people, who, at the end of the day, command respect. The LDS community is crying out for people who enrich the lives of others and behave respectably. As just your average LDS nobody, I have not provided it. But neither have these fellows consistently provided it, and I think that in their targeting of their ideological foes, they are at their absolute worst.
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I guess the apologists didn’t get the memo.
Quote:Wayfarer wrote: Love this post. Totally agree. I even had to look up ‘panegyrical” in my OED….
Confucius was a brilliant observer of human behavior. Either he or his grandson noted that when we pursue the edges of emotion, then we lose the center, the mean, the Middle Way. While I, too, appreciate Peterson and Midgley’s exegisis on occasion, I find that the mopologist battle turns everything to ‘crap’ — (I’m sure there is a very educated word for this…
Most LDS don’t give a flying fidaddle as to what is happening on either side of this fringe. They’re looking for a way to get through this life with some degree of serenity and joy. The gospel, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, can offer that: it’s the Way of harmony, of authenticity, of being, of truth, and of life. Such schisms do nothing to promote that. The Mopologists, entirely as a genre, do nothing to promote that. I don’t think Dehlin did either…although I think he tried to find authenticity, he could not find it, as Confucius did, in the Middle.
Quote:Kish Wrote: Agreed. I think what John tried to do was not in itself bad. The LDS Church has failed to help its members who struggle. The apologists attacked the people who they saw as raising the issues. John raised the issues and talked about them openly, but saw that he did not have a solution or something more to offer. Furthermore, the LDS Church is suspicious, and understandably so, of such movements. Something appears to be missing here, and I think your posts gets at that very thing, at least in part.
This is a great topic. I hope John does find peace in full activity of the church. I will pray for him and his family. It’s sad that some people have taken what John had said in his podcasts and blogs to such extremes to engage in some serious sins, but they can repent and return, just like John, Thanks cwald, very good reposts. I used to idol worship the men at FARMS as amazing defenders of the faith.
I was quite shocked when I read their comments on MDDB. They seem so arrogant and uncharitable towards those who doubt. Like a party clown that hates kids.
John may not realise it, but his podcast suggests he still is middle way. He has told the SP that he can’t say ‘I know God lives’ and that he can’t square things intellectually but wants to attend to enjoy the emotional and spiritual benefits. He wants to ‘make mormonism work’ for him. Uh… That sounds quite middle way.
I listened to all three hours and my take is: John is a sincere, yet still a confused and conflicted individual, just like me. His message to not neglect the emotional nature of ourselves is important. Religion fills needs in my life regardless of how much I wish I didn’t have those needs. I may be doomed to a life of either continued cognitive dissonance, or unfilled needs for spiritual an emotional belonging and community. Amen brother. after listening to the podcast, it’s apparent he’s still in the “middle ground” of the mormon spectrum. however, it’s a middle ground that he appears to be happy and content with and i pray that he can make it work. Who is john dehlin? Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:Who is john dehlin?
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Lol, that’s probably the best approach.
Ayn Rand reference? Who is John Galt? One of the most underrated novelists of the 19th c and the biographer of Byron. Not a character in a badly written, badly edited piece of politicized hackwork.
mackay11 wrote:cwald wrote:Who is john dehlin?
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Lol, that’s probably the best approach.
Not to mentioned I really had a hard time with his last podcast “Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church”. If he’s “all in” what’s he doing still out there putting himself in positions to cause people faith crises? I thought the info itself was fine but it was the same old way of doing it. I could totally see an unsuspecting TBM click on this video on youTube to understand why mormons leave and then BAMM! All the issues are presented in all their ugliness with no explanation or way to soften the blow. As one who has “recommitted” himself to the church, I really don’t see what has changed.I thought his 5 Myths was an attempt at using his active status and his story to build a bridge between the disaffected and the TBM crowd. It is the type of presentation I would really like to show my parents who are recently returned missionaries who are filled with the RM zeal (read judgment) towards the disaffected. If regular active members could understand the complexity and sincerity of a faith crisis it would be beneficial to most people who stumble upon this site.
It is not my impression that John is returning to Mormonism. When I listened to his Why I Stay address at Sunstone, and put it together with the present podcast,etc. I don’t get the feeling he’s reconstructing or returning as we interpret. He lives in a densely populated LDS area, his family and wifes family also reside near by. I am willing to bet most of his world is effected by this proximity. This means his kids get no party invitations, his wives friends abandon her, and so on. It’s a painful cultural truth, we reject. (Not just mormons, any close knit team, group, org. – rejects). John had to make some choices for the people he wanted to stay connected to. He has never said – “I had an Alma the Younger moment, and I am heading back.” No he’s found good, and is hoping to acclimate back to a participatory status. That is a huge difference than Faith Reconstruction.
His road will still unwind, ebb, flow, flood, and drought as he goes. That is his history. There is nothing wrong with it. If any error exists it may be in our expectation of his work. In our grief did we claim or expect more than we should of? Did people help him build a platform that may not have been viable? If so, he is not the only contributor.
As to his latest video, or more to the desire to have a video to share with faithful or enthusiastic members – I don’t know if one can ever be created. Maybe it can, but I think it’s hard to do – mostly because if you aren’t interested in the information you won’t go looking for it. It’s like a cancer cure. I don’t presently have cancer, I don’t spend hours researching it, I don’t visit sites about it. I know it exists. I have close friends who have had various forms of it. Some have lived, others died. I sat bedside with one friend for 4 months as she parted with this world. Even in the proximity I wasn’t interested in the underlying cause or if I would get it.
I think disaffection is similar. Not until a string starts to unravel or you meet an unrest, do you become truly interested in why, how, what – what now. So having a video might help a bit, but it won’t touch the deep understanding that I think we wish for. There just is no way to create that hunger in a devout person. Our best effort maybe to love them beyond their fear and that is a challenge.
mom3 wrote:
John had to make some choices for the people he wanted to stay connected to. He has never said – “I had an Alma the Younger moment, and I am heading back.” No he’s found good, and is hoping to acclimate back to a participatory status. That is a huge difference than Faith Reconstruction.
I’m not so sure, but I also try not to judge another’s motivations. In my view it doesn’t necessarily take an Alma the Younger moment to turn course and begin to rebuild. I think he said something like “my life in the church is better than when I’m out”, I feel like I can take him on his word with that and wish him the best. I would always prefer someone work out their issues while attending, we don’t reserve the pews for specific testimony flavors.
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