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I don’t think anyone should be surprised that Dehlin is getting pushed out… and that includes JD. John threw down the gauntlet long ago. Either the church would reform or john would get the ax. Done.
Here is the way i see it. John Dehlin is the greatest apostate the church has had to deal with in a 100 years because he has created his own stage and a name and he will use it to force the church to confront it’s problems. And for that effort I thank him.
I believe that when organizations take action like this — especially to a public figure like John who will no doubt share his experience with the bloggernacle — there is a message sent to the organization as a whole. This is true whether the organization intended an organization-wide message or not. What message do you think we should receive from this? Perhaps the question is premature, but if it turns out there is an excommunication, what message does it send, intendedly or not to the world, and Mormons, particularly Mormons like us?
Some believe that if there is no place for John, there is no place for the rest of us (I heard that in a few spots), but I think there is room for more interpretations in the absence of any likely, clear, public statement from the church about why they are doing this.
Where does this leave us? I think we are free to doubt, as long as we don’t shout those doubts from the rooftops and the bloggernacle. I am not as familiar with JD’s stories and podcasts as many here, but it seems the issue is the public nature of his doubts and discussions. If he had quietly had issues and never decided to “help” others who had them, I don’t think he would be in this situation. I use the word “help” because there are many who won’t think his approach is that helpful in staying in the church–they would have wanted him to take an apologist’s viewpoint. As I have said before, I will continue to doubt, but I will keep that on the down low, and suffer in a bit of silence. Places like this will become more important and more known. These places will become our sanity. But, I believe the exodus will continue, and will pick up in pace. And that exodus will be said to be one of the signs of the times when even the righteous shall fall. We will be looked at as fulfilling prophecy and as an indication that the second coming is getting closer. In the words of one of my favorite temple characters, “well, we shall see”.
I really liked your comments, Eternity4me. I’m trying to be balanced about this. Kate Kelly’s excommunication devastated me more, not because I was a “follower” but because prior to that, I thought the church was progressing in a certain way. The church’s toleration of Ordain Women (even if undermined by a dismal PR department) signaled to me it had moved past its days of the “September Six” and perhaps was on its way to become a more tolerating, accepting church. Then the excommunication happened and it wrecked me. I guess I should have seen it coming. I won’t get into if I think it was ethical etc., but it did have a significant emotional impact on me. This one is less of a blow.
Of course I believe church’s have a right to excommunicate members and set boundaries for acceptable behavior. That does not mean that I have to always agree with those decisions. To be honest, to me, excommunication is an act of spiritual violence. When I was educated in seminary and church, an “apostate” description basically equated a person to the lowest thing a person could possibly be, close if not equal to murderers. Naturally, we had no right to judge people’s hearts but apostasy was a very severe spiritual crime. That’s why, when anyone is labeled an “apostate” I get a little jumpy. It’s a painful word to me.
Of course, who one sees as an “apostate” another sees as a reformer.
The unwillingness of the higher leadership to involve itself in local matters is a double-edged sword. Their unwillingness to offer clarity on what is acceptable and what is not will probably save some but will also surely give some bishops and stake presidents justification to discipline members. I don’t think it’s so simple to blame it on bishops or stake presidents who have let the power inflate them a bit. Kate Kelly’s excommunication as well as John Dehlin’s (I’m one who believes it’s going to happen) will signal to some that those who agree with their line of thinking are out of line and need to face discipline (I feel this has already happened with Ordain Women members and even Mormon feminists). I don’t think it’s a reach for some local leadership to react that way, either. And I don’t always think bishops and stake presidents who react that way are drunk with power at all. They are simply trying to emulate the precedents set by others and be faithful servants to the church. In some cases, they are good people unknowingly doing very hurtful things because they think it’s right. I can’t fault them for doing what they genuinely think lines up with the Church’s views.
Also, I disagree with the idea that Kate was more of an “apostate” than John. Kate’s problem was that she waged a campaign about about women’s treatment in the church: an issue that the press gravitated to and the church was defensive about. However, she was very traditional in her beliefs about the church. Ironically, the church’s stance about ordination now is carefully-worded not to say that women will never get the Priesthood
🙄 John, on the other hand, was very public about stating his unorthodox beliefs and lack of belief in many of the church’s claims. I’m not necessarily saying that John was “worse” than Kate, either.I also understand the TBM justification for John’s excommunication. I do. I even remember watching one of his podcats and at one point thinking to myself, “Wow. I agree with everything he just said…but I wonder…he’s very convincing. Is this what a modern apostate looks like?” But I think part of the problem is people aren’t listening to how badly this is going to hurt struggling members of the church and the implications of this excommunication. That’s what I get frustrated about. People aren’t listening. They’re so committed to their viewpoint as “right” that they write off the pain of others without attempting to understand them.
Overall, in my opinion, this will do more harm than good. But there have been plenty of people in the past excommunicated who were vindicated by history, even if few people remember them. Maybe Kate and John will be two more names. Maybe not.
Quote:That’s what I get frustrated about. People aren’t listening. They’re so committed to their viewpoint as “right” that they write off the pain of others without attempting to understand them.
This is the key point for me. Not just with excommunication, I read it on every blog, board, etc. We are divided, entrenched and there is no turning us around. Honestly I do lay any healing that could happen at the feet of the Upper quorums. Not the 15 only, but the 15, the 70’s and Area Reps. I am convinced that Area Reps have a huge impact on this stuff. Most of us, including Stake Presidents can’t get in contact with the Q15, so the Area dude gets to make the decisions and it is painstakingly obvious that we are retrenched back to an area around 1970, early 1980.
So yes I can go to church, be silent or selective in my words, I can try to love, provide service, be friendly – but my kind – my authentic kind they are not wanted. We are now the Samaritans in the story.
Eternity4me wrote:Where does this leave us?
It leaves me wanting to re-read pres. Uchtdorf’s October 2013 talk, “Come Join With Us”
Quote:Some might ask, “But what about my doubts?”
It’s natural to have questions—the acorn of honest inquiry has often sprouted and matured into a great oak of understanding. There are few members of the Church who, at one time or another, have not wrestled with serious or sensitive questions. One of the purposes of the Church is to nurture and cultivate the seed of faith—even in the sometimes sandy soil of doubt and uncertainty. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.
…If you could see into our hearts, you would probably find that you fit in better than you suppose. You might be surprised to find that we have yearnings and struggles and hopes similar to yours. Your background or upbringing might seem different from what you perceive in many Latter-day Saints, but that could be a blessing. Brothers and sisters, dear friends, we need your unique talents and perspectives. The diversity of persons and peoples all around the globe is a strength of this Church.
Some might say, “I don’t think I could live up to your standards.”
All the more reason to come! The Church is designed to nourish the imperfect, the struggling, and the exhausted. It is filled with people who desire with all their heart to keep the commandments, even if they haven’t mastered them yet.
Orson for years I lived under that hope, and I still believe if I just attend, keep a smile on my face and follow the public guidelines I will be fine. But that life is a loss, there are important matters and pains to discuss and treat, there are essays barely acknowledged by leadership, there is rhetoric that is hurting homes, and there are families under deep distress being swept under the rug. I love Uchtdorfs words, I love 3 Nephi 18 which invites ALL to attend and to be included, I wept during Relief Society as we sang in, “As I have loved you, love one another” trying to imagine us doing just that, I read the Women at the Well story yesterday and hoped for the transcendent possibility of all of us finding healing waters, where we would no longer thirst. Then I read facebook, BCC, etc and I see the opposite. The only people reading Uchtdorfs words are us who are trying to make it work. No one else. And when they do, they only repeat “Doubt your doubts.”
I love Utopia, Zion, Nirvana and heaven. I just no longer believe they will happen here. Ever.
I think cwald used the right imagery–JD threw down the gauntlet, whether intentionally or out of naivete. I do not envy Pres King’s position. JD will probably be excommunicated. I benefitted greatly from mormon stories. But I have to admit that the result of his podcasts was my withdrawal from the church. The church is in an awful position. The freedom of information the internet brought has made any kind of control over the unsavory aspects of the church’s history impossible. JDs efforts have placed hours and hours of discussion and interpretation of these issues in cyberspace, able to be retrieved by anyone in crisis. From a strategic standpoint, the church has to discredit Dehlin. As an excommunicant, Dehlin’s work will be immediately off limits to members who will not break the taboos on “anti-mormon internet materials.” Mormon Stories is the “printing press” E Holland advised JD not to purchase.
I think the average questioner is safe from the level of scrutiny JD has brought upon himself (barring a bad round of priesthood roulette). Whether his excommunication would make the tent a smaller place or not, who knows?
I’d like to say that I strongly oppose the excommunication of John DehlinHowever, I also think that he has flip-flopped around too much. This suggests that he is letting his emotional issues overpower his judgement, IMHO, and that he is not finding the “middle way” at all but flightiness.
mom3 wrote:I love Utopia, Zion, Nirvana and heaven. I just no longer believe they will happen here. Ever.
The ideal will never happen. The hope for it can be a powerful motivating force to try to emulate it as close as possible. Kind of like how the church tries to emulate the gospel ideals…but will never actually achieve it.
The gospel teaches “ALL are invited to join”.
The church moves to excommunicate some based on its views of not knowing how to reconcile things any better at the time, and so the mortals agree to disagree, and part ways.
There will always be a gap between the ideal and the real, the spiritual and the temporal, the vision and the historical, the Christ and the prophet, the gospel and the church. But it does not mean to me that Utopia and Zion are not of any value. I just try to accept them for what they are, and manage my expectations accordingly.
I believe there was a path for John to avoid this action, and he chose not to. That doesn’t make him wrong and the church right. The church leaders in his area had a choice to handle it differently and keep him in…there is a place for him. They chose not to. I’m not aware of the details and what was said behind close doors.
But the outcome doesn’t surprise me, nor alarm me. It just is the result of individual choices. It is sad, and disappointment is a valid response on this. None of these choices are irreversible. What happens next depends on what people do with this outcome. Nothing about this situation is final, nor universally applicable to all.
I respect John, for what I know of him.
Heber – I agree with your thoughts in a simple way. For me the day I was lowest was because of April not John. I just kind of connected the two. I see and get where the John issue has run it’s course. The April experience hit an unexpected nerve and I let it leak into many areas. My heart is broken over our human-ness. When I get tired of being human I want somewhere to rest my soul, finding that new spot is going to be a bit bumpy. Thank you for not overlooking my post on a painful day. It means a lot.
mom3 wrote:Heber – I agree with your thoughts in a simple way.
I’m pretty simple minded…so, ya.
Quote:The April experience hit an unexpected nerve and I let it leak into many areas. My heart is broken over our human-ness. When I get tired of being human I want somewhere to rest my soul, finding that new spot is going to be a bit bumpy.
Wishing you peace, my friend. It is sad, I don’t dismiss it in any way.
Quote:My heart is broken over our human-ness.
I have felt a profound sadness over my realization that full church activity is no longer possible for me. It’s about where the church is right now, and I am right now. It’s just, sad, and well…human.
I have hope in a time and place when Zion won’t be hindered by our humanness. I think that as long as we’re all human, there will be seasons when the tent just isn’t big enough for all of us. But our love for each other can keep us warm while we’re temporarily put out in the cold. Friendship and love matter! I believe these relationships will be the only thing we take with us to the beyond…
Interesting interview on NPR’s Weekend Edition Sunday. http://www.npr.org/2015/02/01/382876946/mormon-stories-podcast-founder-contemplates-excommunication GBSmith wrote:Interesting interview on NPR’s Weekend Edition Sunday.
http://www.npr.org/2015/02/01/382876946/mormon-stories-podcast-founder-contemplates-excommunication I wanted to listen before I commented. My observations:
1. The interviewer casts JD as someone who questions the church. IMO he has clearly moved beyond questioning – he clearly states he does not believe any of it. That’s different from questioning.
2. JD does make a good point – in Catholicism one can openly criticize the pope and other leaders and remain a member in good standing. I don’t know about other churches.
3. JD in talking about StayLDS casts us as people who can’t leave because of family, etc. While I don’t know the full history of the site, I would venture to say that most of us who are now active here are not in that situation – it might be a contributing factor but not the only factor. I would also point out that, like point 1, JD has publicly disavowed the StayLDS ideal.
4. I agree with GBS, in the statement about making a lot of very significant changes it does seem like it’s time for JD to move on. I would like to see changes in the church, too. I’m not sure about “very significant” changes, though. And, I do see change – even in last week’s press conference.
5. I appreciate that JD (and the interviewer) did not make this out to be a LGBT/OW issue – because it’s really not about that at all.
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