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Speaking for myself, I didn’t “casually dismiss John Dehlin”. In fact, I think in the balance he has done more good for people in the church than harm, and I oppose him being excommunicated. What I disagree with is how he has let his tendency to swing from side to side take over, instead of following the middle way he himself has espoused.
SamBee wrote:Speaking for myself, I didn’t “casually dismiss John Dehlin”. In fact, I think in the balance he has done more good for people in the church than harm, and I oppose him being excommunicated.
What I disagree with is how he has let his tendency to swing from side to side take over, instead of following the middle way he himself has espoused.
I hear you on the first part. I consider him both the person that started my faith crisis, but also he kept me from leaving at the height of my panic of my crisis.And I have listened to enough to see him swing all over the place – he has even admitted at times he has lost his desire to be “objective”. I cut him a bit of slack as I have had (as DBMormon has said) my bad days where I would say, “it is a matter of time before I leave the church.” Those days are less lately even as I get yelled at my dentist for grinding my teeth too much.
I think in the fulness of time (to use a Mormonism), John Dehlin will be seen as a force for good, but like I say, he’s got to stop his psychology from clouding his world view. We’ve all got issues – one of mine is depression, and I think I’ve been guilty of letting that affect my outlook, and leading it towards pessimism. But identification of an issue is halfway to resolving it. Quote:And I have listened to enough to see him swing all over the place – he has even admitted at times he has lost his desire to be “objective”. I cut him a bit of slack as I have had (as DBMormon has said) my bad days where I would say, “it is a matter of time before I leave the church.” Those days are less lately even as I get yelled at my dentist for grinding my teeth too much.
I agree with all this.
I think today my issue (which sounds stupid, I know) is that the local Family History Center keeps closing ten minutes before advertized (with me in it), and that people keep on screwing up the heavily researched family lines that I took time putting on FamilySearch… but hopefully that will pass, and I can’t let that take over the rest of my church life.
SamBee wrote:Speaking for myself, I didn’t “casually dismiss John Dehlin”. In fact, I think in the balance he has done more good for people in the church than harm, and I oppose him being excommunicated.
What I disagree with is how he has let his tendency to swing from side to side take over, instead of following the middle way he himself has espoused.
I guess that’s what’s been the hardest for me. To buy into what he said and then have him go back and forth.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I don’t think he should be so casually dismissed at staylds.com.
He is not being casually dismissed at StayLDS.com – by anyone.He has done great good, but he also has done great harm – and this absolutely is NOT about an impatient Stake President and a saintly member. What Ray said.
TimeTime will tell the rest of this story.
I haven’t followed this thread in a couple of days. My personal feelings have calmed down and I am letting this go. Yet this morning I awoke with a huge remembrance of the lives of two different men who changed dramatically.
William W. Phelps – Famous LDS hymn contributor, active Mormon, friend of Prophet Joseph, dissenter, mobster, Mormon hater, heretic, returnee. Today we sing his hymns with little remembrance of the full path he walked/choose.
Dr. J – Famous Viennese physician, “The mass murderer of Steinhof”, serious Nazi supporter, eventually imprisoned in Russian prison camp, died.
Buta fellow inmate in the prison said the following, Quote:I made his acquaintance in Lubianka. There he died…Before he died, however, he showed himself to be the best comrade you can imagine! He gave consolation to everybody. He lived up to the highest conceivable moral standard. He was the best friend I ever met during my long years in prison.
I am
notsaying John is a mass murderer or mobster, what I am saying is we don’t know what the future holds for any of us, we all change sometimes as widely as these examples, sometimes not, but for me I choose to try and keep the future open for John, for the church, for the leaders that will make these decisions. And if like William Phelps, John wants to return, I pray I can accept him back as lovingly and fully as the saints in Phelps time did for him. Begging your pardon, but if John Dehlin is not being casually dismissed by anyone— then why are people saying it is time to move on and it’s all on John now? John is not running for office. He is an American who understands his rights to freedom of speech and freedom of the press. He can “flip-flop” as many times as he likes. It’s a day to day thing for many of us who are experiencing a faith crisis.
Finding out that we have been lied to by the very people who demand explicit trust is hard on anyone. John has provided a forum of support, love and acceptance where there previously wasn’t one.
Not sure why Ray McGraw keeps mentioning the Stake President and Bishop, I surely didn’t. They have their marching orders and that is not their fault.
twolamps wrote:Begging your pardon, but if John Dehlin is not being casually dismissed by
anyone— then why are people saying it is time to move on and it’s all on John now?
It might be because we’re reading what John is saying. He has started to move on of his own accord. He doesn’t go to church, and seems to welcome excommunication. This isn’t the same “Why I Stay” John, it’s more like “Why I’m Leaving.” A few months ago I would have said this would be painful for him. While I don’t think it will be painless, I think it’s what he wants.
FWIW, Ray knows and loves John.
This is me speaking as a forum member, not a mod.
I’m not sure I buy that the bishop and SP have their marching orders. I used to think that before I talked to people more closely involved in running the church, but I do tend to believe that leader roulette is a very real thing, and that the COB doesn’t in fact dictate these outcomes. If you get a leader who thinks he’s getting orders from on high and who is looking to obey those above him rather than evaluate the case based on the perceived needs for the individual, then there may be 5 bullets in the six chambers. If you get a leader who is self-confident enough to take higher ups at their word that what happens in the DC stays in the DC, maybe there’s only 1 bullet in the six chambers. But the SP and bishop come to the meeting with their own perspective, and that perspective along with John’s input (which has been that he doesn’t mind being ex’d) will dictate the outcome. Just because the Strengthening the Members Committee exists and keeps files on people doesn’t mean it actually takes the actions of excommunicating people. Some bishops and SPs are “yes men.” Some simply agree with the party line rather than conforming for personal gain. Others just want to do what’s right for the individual. I have no idea what sort of bishop & SP John has, but these are some of the options. John has historically been very compelling in meetings with his leaders, but if he doesn’t care whether he is ex’d (as he has been saying for a few months), that will be interpreted by some as him wanting it. The real tragedy, IMO, was Kate. As a woman, she is far less likely to have a personal relationship with her leaders or to be understood by them for who she is.
Lots of us consider John a personal friend, Ray included. IMO, John is more Mormon than I am, and I go to church every week! He’s born & bred; it’s in his bones. He lives in Utah. He’s going to be Mormon whether ex’d or not.
Hi twolamps. You and I haven’t crossed paths much yet, as I have more or less moved on from StayLDS, myself (though ‘less’ at the moment). However, I just want to say ‘hello’ and chat a bit about this. When I was an all-in member of the Church, I saw very little variation in the acceptable forms of mormonism. In a way, there were only a handful of ideals, and everyone seemed to be working on getting themselves to those ideals.
But now, I see things much differently. People, after a faith crisis, scatter in an endless array of possible directions. Although this forum is committed to helping those who are trying to StayLDS, people here are often as different as night and day. It becomes very individualized. We believe different things. We have different hot-buttons, and we have different areas where we are at peace. As an example, polygamy is a major hot-button issue for me, yet I am at peace with the priesthood ban (as they both stand today). Other people here are at peace with polygamy, but are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore about the ban. That’s fine. We understand each other in ways that only we can; even when we don’t agree.
My point is that no one here has to either love or hate what John Dehlin has done, where he stands today or where he will go tomorrow. He is an individual and just as responsible for his own spiritual, emotional, and psychological welfare as I am for mine and you are for yours. He and I have a lot of common feelings and history, but we have chosen divergent paths in coming to terms with it. My path suits me; his suites him. I wish him well.
Hi Hawkgrrrl, This article has been removed from it’s original source. I can only find remnants now.
‘DISCIPLINE FOR “ORDAIN WOMEN” CAME FROM HIGH LEVEL LDS LEADERS
Discipline For “Ordain Women” Came From High Level LDS Leaders
Sources say that on May 17 Elder M. Russell Ballard and Elder Whitney Clayton, were in the area for a training meeting. During that meeting, the local church leaders asked Elder Clayton what should be done about the Ordain Women group.
Clayton reportedly said that public advocacy of ordination is an act of apostasy.’
John Dehlin was also on the list, but they decided to wait.
I don’t think John wants to be ex-communicated. I think he wants closure. I think he is tired of constantly having to defend himself to the church. If given a choice between staying in the church and being harassed for his beliefs and excommunication, then I think he would pick excommunication. But mostly, I think he wants to be left alone.
I don’t know him personally, and cannot claim to love him. But I actively pray for him and his family at this painful time.
Thank you On Own Now:) I appreciate your words of wisdom. I came to staylds looking for a reason to stay, but my heart is not in it. The misogyny is driving me crazy. I think in my case it is best to make an exit. There are always things I will admire about the church, but I don’t want my daughter to grow up in a church that sees women as second rate and says that they honor them all in the same breath.
I think many of us are aware of the alleged facts you bring up (and I say “alleged”, but I think they are most likely true). And I have said more than once on this site (or this site and others) that I am not happy that the church leadership wouldn’t even talk with them. I just listened to a podcast from DBMormon (I think it was a “premium member” episode, so it may be released later on for general availability). The person interviewing Bill actually said something along the lines of “others that have had issues/doubts and some of them HAVE had an audience with the top leaders, so why not OW?”
twolamps wrote:I came to staylds looking for a reason to stay, but my heart is not in it. The misogyny is driving me crazy. I think in my case it is best to make an exit. There are always things I will admire about the church, but I don’t want my daughter to grow up in a church that sees women as second rate and says that they honor them all in the same breath.
Most people here will probably wish you well in an honest way and can respect you for making that decision and not judge you. That is where I stand. I would like to hear from you and your experiences from time to time.
Quote:I don’t know him personally, and cannot claim to love him. But I actively pray for him and his family at this painful time.
I think all of us share that final sentiment. I certainly do. I just want to repeat that John isn’t being “dismissed so easily” here.
I also want to echo the statement that we wish you the best on your journey. If this site can help in some way, I hope you stay; if not, I wish you Godspeed as you don’t.
[ Admin Note]: No further discussion about whether or not John is being dismissed by this site or its participants will be allowed. That topic has run its course and has nowhere else to go. I believe should John be excommunicated, there will be people affected and will leave. I can for sure see why that would happen. While I wish there was a better way, reality is that people will make individual decisions and I respect that.
It will be interesting to see what is next. In other words, what good will come of it? Why is it necessary?
I don’t know, which bums me out. I think Orson raised the question earlier, on what excommunication is intended to do exactly.
Many Thanks to those who have been kind and candid and supportive of my journey. I will continue to check in from time to time and wish you all the best on your own individual journeys. “As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world – that is the myth of the atomic age – as in being able to remake ourselves.”-
– Gandhi
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