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I just downloaded John Dehlin’s latest episode at Mormon Stories. He made some comments about StayLDS that I was curious about. Did anyone else hear that, or hear his comments live at Sunstone? I didn’t, but I’m interested, obviously. which podcast in particular? He said some stuff in the Richard Packham interview … ahhhh, never mind. I just saw that he posted his Sunstone workshop. I was actually catching up on recent episodes this week. I’ll download the new one and listen on my commute today. John
hasbeen distancing himself lately from this project. I don’t know if anyone has been paying attention, but I he is no longer listed as the author on the new version of the “How to Stay” article, with a short paragraph about his position on the subject in the Disclaimer section. John and I talked about this a couple of times. I also added 3 additional paragraphs on how to use it and about TBMs not forcing doubting spouses, in particular (as an example), into feeling like they MUST go a middle-way path for the convenience of their relationship. etc. etc. I don’t know if John will have time to stop in here to talk about it directly or answer questions. I’m will listen to the podcast, and return and report.
😯 😯 😯 I listened to 2 of the 4 sections on the way to work. I sent an email to John asking to talk about things on the phone sometime this week. I need to be clear on his position, and how it has changed.
We need to adapt or change some things here so he is comfortable supporting the site as a valid source of information about the exploration of staying in the church; or, we might have to break our public connection with him. I think the best solution is tweaking some things and clarifying our target audience.
I just listened to the first, and most of the second segment. I don’t think John’s comment is directed at any of us, our efforts as a group, or our ability to stay on target or be effective at our stated mission. What I take from what he said is a more general shift in view from having a personal goal or agenda to keep as many struggling members in the church as possible — to helping people determine and follow the paths that will be best for THEM personally. I take from his “gay man in a straight marriage” analogy that he feels the “Fowler stage 5” method may not be sustainable for a large percentage of struggling members. That’s just the way it is – as far as it appears to him. He must have posted later episodes after I downloaded it. I only download episode 1, but John didn’t sound very positive about StayLDS. I’d love to have him clarify. mormonheretic wrote:I’d love to have him clarify.
I am working through that right now with John via email, and possibly a phone call. I will relay more information when I get it.
I am also addressing some of this over at OM and on the Mormon Stories site as people start following along with John’s lead. Yes. Long-term viability of processing our faith in a positive way is just as prone to success/failure as processing it in a negative way. It is a long-term, life-long burden waking up one day to finally realize you ARE actually in the middle somewhere (just like everyone else, but they don’t know it).
Orson wrote:I just listened to the first, and most of the second segment. I don’t think John’s comment is directed at any of us, our efforts as a group, or our ability to stay on target or be effective at our stated mission. What I take from what he said is a more general shift in view from having a personal goal or agenda to keep as many struggling members in the church as possible — to helping people determine and follow the paths that will be best for THEM personally. I take from his “gay man in a straight marriage” analogy that he feels the “Fowler stage 5” method may not be sustainable for a large percentage of struggling members. That’s just the way it is – as far as it appears to him.
Yes. This is exactly right. I regret that folks have interpreted things in any other way….though I’m sure it’s my fault.
Yes….I very much regret that my recent statements have caused concern here. A few quick things… 1) I called Brian a while ago to let him know my thoughts/feelings…and I don’t think I’ve said anything different publicly than what I told Brian privately — and I even told him that I’d be sharing my feelings publicly….so I’m a bit shocked that this has come as a surprise (at least to Brian), but I’m sure it’s all about the way things have been said/positioned (I suck at speaking off the cuff).
2) I still heartily support StayLDS as an option for people. I don’t believe that I’ve condemned the StayLDS approach anywhere, and I know that I’ve said in several places (the John Larsen podcast, etc.) that I still think that the StayLDS approach is good/right for some people.
3) My only issue w/ recommending StayLDS like I used to (and feeling the need to clarify my position now) is the anecdotal feedback that I’ve received from many, many people I’ve been in contact with who have tried the approach. After dozens and dozens of personal friends have contacted me and told me that the position was not ultimately tenable for them (on integrity grounds, and on happiness grounds)…..it made me realize that I needed to be more careful about promoting and recommending StayLDS to folks as if I thought it was something that had a high probability of working for most people. The data tell me that (on average…for most people) it’s a great transitionary technique to help people in the short to medium term — but that for most people, it is not a tenable approach in the long term….mostly because people end up feeling like they’re either lying in the temple recommend interviews…..or 2nd class citizens without temple recommends….or generally being silently complicit in supporting things like Prop 8, homophobia, the mall, etc…..and that the absolute truth claims, and the inability to be candid/vocal/authentic at church just wear people down in the end.
That said, I still ABSOLUTELY believe that for some people, it’s an excellent approach, and I’m SUPER glad that ya’ll are still doing what you’re doing. I totally support the “StayLDS” path being made available for folks who feel like they want/need it. 100%.
So when I compare StayLDS to a gay man marrying a straight woman — it’s only a statement about my understanding of the probability of it working out in the long run. Some people can do it. But in my experience, it is problematic for many/most — can often have negative consequences — and the last thing I want to do is set people up (especially believing spouses or parents/siblings) with expectations that are not tenable for the semi-believer or the disbeliever (“Just stay. John Dehlin can stay….why can’t you?!?!?”)
Anyway…I’m totally happy to clarify this publicly, or to make a statement…or work w/ you all on positioning. Just let me know.
But I hope you will see that I’m only trying to figure out how to help the most amount of people…and I don’t want to set people up with unrealistic expectations….that’s all.
But I love StayLDS, still consider it to be a viable path for some…and want to see it/ya’ll succeed.
Does that help at all?
Thanks John. I posted a response over at OM. Is there anyone here in this Moderator-only forum, interested in the conversation, and can’t access Open Mormon? I don’t want to keep cross posting everything, but I can if needed. Thanks John. Your comments at Sunstone were very brief, and I appreciate the expanded comments. While I understand where you’re coming from, it sounds like you think that StayLDS is a short-term help, but not a long-term solution. We all need to be honest, and I appreciate the honesty. I think we can help, and I want to help, but it is disappointing to learn this isn’t as successful as your initial vision. I am still committed to be anxiously engaged in this good cause, and know we can help people, even if it is just for the short term. mormonheretic, I’m not disappointed at all. Ya’ll do amazing things, and I still believe that StayLDS is super valuable and crucial to many…and is a long term solution for many. Just not necessarily large in terms of percentages…but that’s ok too. There’s nothing wrong with a super helpful solution that only works for a certain percentage.
I think I need to be more careful in how I speak about it, that’s all. I’m in contact w/ Brian, and I’m gonna work on discussing it more carefully….and seeing if I can clarify things. I think that what ya’ll are doing is awesome, valuable, and much needed.
All I was trying to say is…I want folks to know that the way fails for many due to integrity issues — so I don’t want folks to think that the path is recommended without some disclaimers.
Sigh. I’m bummed that this all blew up….but I know it’s my fault.
So sorry guys.
John, please don’t be hard on yourself. I don’t think your comments “blew up”. I wanted a clarification and you gave it. I am satisfied. I really appreciate everything you do, and I really look up to you. I know you’re not perfect, but you’re dang more impressive than me. When I grow up, I want to be just like you! 😆 Thanks John for the clarification. I think we’ve always said on this site that our approach won’t work for everyone, but I’m sure we’ve hoped it could work for more. I think surroundings are also a big part of the equation. My guess is it may be harder in Utah to be comfortable as a “relaxed” Mormon than in other places. Ward and stake dynamics can make someone feel pressure to conform, or comfortable where they are. I feel very fortunate to have compassionate understanding leaders. Maybe not quite to the level of a Ray, or the leaders that Carol Lynn Pearson described, but enough to make me very comfortable.
I just wish more people could be as lucky. I have the feeling that more will as time goes on.
Edit: I also have some thoughts and opinions on the effort that it takes personally to make this approach work. It doesn’t come easy, but I think it can gel or cure effectively to be a solid permanent solution for the right people who really want it. It takes some time to fully internalize some ideas, such as “don’t care what others think” and “see the beauty of the metaphor regardless of the literal probabilities.”
It takes some time for the sediment that gets stirred up from the crisis to settle, and allowing it to settle may even bring feelings of withdrawal. But it is only after it fully settles that one can begin to appreciate the clarity of their “new” view. I see some online forums as effectively “stirring the pot”, and preventing this settling effect. I know how hard it is to take a break during a crisis, and timing is everything. But I now see my wife’s request that I stop visiting NOM as a blessing – though I thought I would go insane at the time. I see it today as invaluable time to let everyone else’s opinions rest – and give my own ideas (and thoughts from Bennion, Arrington, England, Bushman, Eyring, etc.) some time to take root.
Anyway… FWIW
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