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Fwiw, Joni is in a toxic, probably abusive relationship and probably has some serious psychological issues. I am sure that contributed to her “God doesn’t love me” revelation. I just want to make sure we all understand she is one of those participants we can’t help much, except to be listening ears and fellow mourners and comforters.
Old Timer wrote:I just want to make sure we all understand she is one of those participants we can’t help much, except to be listening ears and fellow mourners and comforters.
I agree.
I’d describe her as someone that still has an orthodox, literal belief that’s going through an angry at god phase (or maybe her literal comments are more jabs than statements of belief – I don’t know), which is fine. If interacting with people here helps her StayLDS, all the better. I don’t believe the kind of support you’d give a person experiencing a more traditional faith crisis would help her much though.
Makes me pause and think… there is no way to “help” Joni. She may be like my mentally ill ex-wife. No matter what you do to try to help them…it is a different realm than just some advice from a friend to help them learn. They won’t.
Even still…does God place those people in our path to see what we do?
Similarly…do the members of this site have an opportunity to respond to Joni in ways that help define the site. Joni may never figure stuff out…but lurkers could think…
Quote:“man, nibbler is a compassionate dude…and he is not an orthodox LDS thinker”
[to answer my own question…I don’t think God puts anything in anyone’s path. I doubt he is even watching the show. People just do stuff and things happen. It’s not so orchestrated. Even still…amid chaos…I develop myself and become who I am to become. I’ll stand before God someday to be judged by what I’ve become. So church is a place to exercise. This website does that too.]
Perhaps just having a place to dump, vent, or complain is what she needs. While I wish we could help her more, I’m also fine if that’s all we can do. Sad. Thanks for the heads up, Ray. Good catch. Thanks. It is hard for me to conceptualize someone that is so determined to hang onto a personal revelation that would diminish their sense of self worth. We started at similar places where we expected some sort of intervention by God on account of our divine favor. When that did not happen I divorced my idea of God’s love from the expectation of His intervention (accompanied by my own personal revelation on the subject).
She received an answer that God hates her and will withhold his blessings and even step in to curse her and her family when he gets the chance.
It is hard for me to conceptualize that mindset.
I will sit with her in sorrow … even if I cannot understand.
I agree, Roy. It seems she wants to hold onto the classic orthodox ideas of what God is supposed to be while having some of the best personal evidence that idea is off base. It did take me awhile, but the only way I have stayed sane is giving up those ideas and defining my relationship with God on my own. I too will still mourn with her, but I don’t get it.
Mental illness is devastating when it is extreme – and, if abuse is long-term it often leads to a level of self-doubt and self-loathing that perpetuates the sort of feelings she describes. I believe in “pure revelation” only because I have experienced it on a very few occasions in my life – but when someone with a mental illness is raised to interpret their feelings as revelation, “dark revelation” often is the result. Condemnation becomes a self-fulling prophecy, projected onto God as His view. I am not certain of long-term abuse, since her personality type often sees abuse even in sincere efforts to help (sometimes reaching paranoia) and since we don’t have her husband’s side of the story, but it wouldn’t surprise me if she is in a relationship that exacerbates her natural pessimism about herself and her worth.
Thus, I wouldn’t say she chooses to have or accept that view; I would say she might not have a choice in the matter. If so, she is no more accountable than a traditional mentally disabled member – and, in relation to the consequences on her kids (and perhaps husband), neither are her family members. I believe our 2nd Article of Faith teaches that.
That’s a pretty good assessment, Ray. Well done. It raises the interesting topic of revelation, doesn’t it. Does it even come from anything outside us…or is it a manifestation of the god within us?
How do you tell someone that if they received revelation that God hates them…that they are receiving “dark revelation”?
Having experienced what I thought was revelation, and having dealt with mental illness in my ex-wife and at my work (I spend 1/3 of my time at a psych hospital)…I can’t seem to put my finger on how revelation works when everything goes through our brains, and we have no idea how brains work and what is spiritual and what is not.
I can’t imagine God hates Joni. But … I have no idea how to even approach such a subject with someone else. Only that I believe what I believe…have no clue how it works for others.
I’m losing a testimony of revelation…I mostly kinda think Joseph Smith had some good ideas, like Mark Twain had, like how I felt impressed to include some things in a talk I gave last week. As humans, we think stuff up. We can frame it as revelation…but…we don’t really know what that means….except it is what we believe it to be. Belief is a powerful thing.
What if Trump is receiving revelation by the same standard Thomas S Monson is? how are we to tell?
Mental illness is a huge mystery to the plan of salvation, methinks.
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