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I’ve felt the same reading other intros. the similarities are fascinating, and make a solitary process feel a little less lonely. That was beautiful and inspirational to me Jordan. Thanks for sharing that part of your journey. Hello Jordan. Looking forward to getting to know you. I am more easily moved to tears than many, but that doesn’t diminish the impact this had on me as I read it. Bless you for sharing it and for being here with us. Old-Timer wrote:I am more easily moved to tears than many, but that doesn’t diminish the impact this had on me as I read it. Bless you for sharing it and for being here with us.
I know where you’re coming from. I mean, I cry at super market openings.
But Ray, so glad
you’rehere. I’m adjunct. You carry this work uphill. I hope you feel the appreciation we all have for you. Jordan wrote:One night I looked in the mirror (I really did this), and I asked myself if I was willing to be truly intellectually honest. I was trembling as I did – because I knew that if I continued down this road
I had to bewillingto say goodbye to the church. I had to be willing to let it all go. And I said yes, I would be honest with myself. I would leave the church if that’s where this road led. I was instantly flooded with relief, and I continued studying. That is the night of my second birth.
Amen, Jordan.If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him.
HiJolly
Brilliant Jordan!! I’m happy to have gotten a little better insight into your life.
Jordan wrote:So, I see controversy. I do not dismiss it. I have no answers for it. But I do not need answers anymore, because I do not let the controversy distract me from my new purpose, from the balm of my soul, from the very real Christianity that is in Mormonism (and elsewhere). And I’ve gradually become so very grateful for this whole process, glad it happened. Life’s better, not easier, but so much better.
I love this, and feel this way too. I still have opinions, and I am interested in the controversy, it’s just that it no longer carries any special weight for me. I think this is where many TBMs and critics alike will criticize people in this position because they are caught up in the either/or thinking of the controversy. Transcending the controversy has been so liberating for me.Thank you for sharing!
HiJolly wrote:If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him.
I had to look this one up. I get that it’s meant to say “nobody else is a more reliable Buddha for yourself personally – than yourself.” I think it’s a great message of self-confidence and self-reliance.
Quote:Now truth is only useful if it leads to that which is good. It’s better to be good than right.
-I love Mormonism. I love many things. I’m really excited to build on this with you all.
Here! Here!
Being right is such a burden. I’m mostly off that band wagon, except when I get defensive.
Jordan wrote:
So, I asked what the hymn asks – where could I turn for peace? After a while (there’s more to it) I came to believe that there is one thing works without fail, and that’s Christ – his message of forgiveness, repentance, charity, hope. I grabbed it because it was the only solid thing left. Everything else was dust, but I KNEW that Christ’s message was the perfect balm for the soul. I said to myself that I was going to chase Christ for the rest of my life.To my GREAT surprise, I found Christ all over Mormonism. I saw it all with new eyes, like one of those cheesy computer generated “Magic Eye” pictures where, if you blur your eyes, you finally see some weird donkey or a palm tree or something – I saw Christ all over Mormonism, as if it was all specifically designed for this. The Book of Mormon has it, Helaman 5:12. The Bible, in Matthew 5. Modern prophets, in their admonitions of kindness, forgiveness. Faith, hope, charity, love, all that jazz. It’s like I saw life, the church, the universe for their real purpose now, for the first time. Christ teaches us the path to joy and goodness. Truth exists to help us build joy and goodness. Sin is nothing more than that which gets in the way of joy and goodness. Repentance is getting rid of things that keep us from joy and goodness.
So, the intellectual controversies never went away. Modern prophets are still fallible; the Book of Mormon, Bible, BofA all still stand on tenuous historicity; Joseph Smith and Brigham are still mysteries; well-meaning and misguided church leaders still make mistakes; most members don’t know JS was a polygamist – yes – but this is man, not God. People are people. We are all a bunch of rookies on earth doing our best. God will forgive me my many faults and will forgive that well-meaning misguided bishop and will forgive the blood sucking pagan and will forgive James Strang. We are not judged on whether we are right, because being right by itself has no meaning. We are judged on whether we’re trying to be good.
A good retort is that the church may not foster transcendent thinking. Why stay in a church that does not foster this?
Well, first, nobody fosters this. This is the very solitary journey of the soul. I’m not sure any group can teach someone to be truly solitary. So, I see controversy. I do not dismiss it. I have no answers for it. But I do not need answers anymore, because I do not let the controversy distract me from my new purpose, from the balm of my soul, from the very real Christianity that is in Mormonism (and elsewhere). And I’ve gradually become so very grateful for this whole process, glad it happened. Life’s better, not easier, but so much better.
Jordon, Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. So many of us can relate to you and I certainly do. Reading how each of us have worked through our struggles is so helpful. It’s like each person on this group gives us a piece of a puzzle which helps us to start seeing a picture of a road and gives us a path to follow. Interesting, that you should mention the hymn, “Where can I find piece..” About a year ago when I was in that miserable place of not knowing what I could believe in anymore, my home teacher and his son came by to home teach us. He has been our home teacher for some time now and did something he has never done before. Out of the blue, he asks us if he could sing us a song. We said ‘sure.’ They sang that song, “Where can I find Peace..” (all verses) and then said I hope this song helps you. I bawled my head off afterwords because it was like a light shining in the dark for me at this time. So, I get what you are saying about following Christ is the best answer.
I also liked what you said about this being a solitary journey. It seems to me that the church used to nourish that kind of thinking much more at one time. I loved Hugh B. Brown, LeGrand Richards, and General Conferences that fostered the ideas of questioning and how a church or gospel that could not stand up to scrutiny did not have a strong foundation. I remember being told not to just accept who each new prophet set in was, but to pray about it and get our own comfirmation. I have a poster of Hugh B. Brown’s quote, “He who has never doubted, has never thought.” I do not see this kind of investigative spirit in the church anymore. I see more of a ‘don’t doubt, don’t question, be obiedent, and toe the party line type of attitude, which greatly disturbs me from time to time.” Boyd K. Packer saying that the greatest threat to the church are feminists, homosexuals, and intellectuals really bothered me. The new Gospel Prinicples manual is taking out all references to heavenly mother or heavenly parents or that we can become like God. So, I loved what you said about not worrying so much about the falliblities of people but focusing on the true goal of becoming Christlike. With all of JS and BY’s flaws, they still gave us great thoughts and principles. I particularly like this speech given by BY that supports this idea of a solitary journey that you mentioned:
Personal ResponsibilityBy Brigham Young
In the early history of the Church, many converts who joined with the body of the Saints expected to find a spiritual utopia. Frustrated at finding that the communities of the Saints were populated with people, who in many instances were no better than themselves, some of these immigrants voiced their disillusionment and left the Church. These people had anticipated a Zion in which they could bask in spiritual light day and night. Longing to be nurtured by revelations, miracles, and manifestations of divine power, they sought heaven on earth. They did not realize that spiritual maturity often comes slowly and that many, like themselves, find the courage and strength necessary to overcome their own weaknesses. Of such people, Brigham Young would inquire, “What hinders you from enjoying all that you anticipated?” If you are not as you desire to be, if you do not feel the prompting or influence of the Holy Ghost to the extent that you think you should, where is the fault to be found? Responding to his own question, President Young explained that it was a mistake to suppose that others could prevent you from enjoying the light of God in your soul. “All hell,” he said, “cannot hinder me from enjoying Zion in my own heart, if my individual will yields obedience to the requirements and mandates of my Heavenly Master “ (JD 1:311). Brigham Young declared himself to be the only man in heaven, on earth, or in hell responsible for Brigham Young. Further he held that the same doctrine applied equally to every Latter-day Saint. Salvation is an individual matter. “I am the only person that can accept Christ and save myself,” said Brigham. We cannot pin our faith on someone else’s sleeve. No one can accept or reject salvation in behalf of another. It is not the object or design of the gospel to create spiritual dependence. Of those who constantly suspend their own judgment to lean upon others they suppose to have greater wisdom than themselves, President Young said that they ‘will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming gods.” They cannot rule themselves, let alone give direction to others. Spiritually, he likened them to children who need direction in every trifle. “They cannot control themselves in th least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They can never become gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives.” Who will?” asked President Young, “those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course.” Ibid, p.312) (taken from SEEKING THE SPIRIT by Joseph Fielding McConkie)
Orson wrote:HiJolly wrote:If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him.
I had to look this one up. I get that it’s meant to say “nobody else is a more reliable Buddha for yourself personally – than yourself.” I think it’s a great message of self-confidence and self-reliance.
Your comment is totally valid, and in Buddhist terms, works perfectly.
Too often, we build up what God ought to be in our own minds, based in an immature understanding. But we leave that visualization in place, even after we become mature in the Gospel, and it keeps us from seeing what is really there.
HiJolly
HiJolly wrote:Orson wrote:HiJolly wrote:If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him.
I had to look this one up. I get that it’s meant to say “nobody else is a more reliable Buddha for yourself personally – than yourself.” I think it’s a great message of self-confidence and self-reliance.
Perhaps this is also a warning that others that claim to be perfect are but false prophets.I like this about Buddhism and Mormon theology both…personal revelation should drive us to truth.
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