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Well said, Rix. curt, fwiw, I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic – and I apologize if it came across that way. I mean that sincerely.
However, I meant what I said: We don’t do sarcasm here. We don’t do personal attacks. We have all kinds of disagreements and see lots of things in multiple (and sometimes widely different ways) – but we don’t do sarcasm.
Again, I apologize sincerely if my comment seemed sarcastic. Please understand that it was not meant to be so, and please respect the type of forum we try to be. We can air all kinds of concerns and issues here – but this isn’t a dumping ground for bitterness or anger or any other negativity. It is a place for those seeking reconciliation or understanding or coping mechanisms or peace or any other positive way to remain actively engaged and HAPPY within the LDS Church.
There is a huge difference between expressing negative emotions and experiences (which is absolutely fine here) and using sarcasm (which is not).As to your actual comment, I meant that I don’t want to try to give a detailed, long, complex answer to your question. I don’t want to “address” it, per se. Either Emma touched plates, or she lied about it – or the statement was fabricated by someone else. I think the evidence suggests she touched plates and believed her husband. Therefore, my own opinion is not complex or detailed with regard to the specific question you asked. In a nutshell, it simply is:
I don’t know, but I think she touched plates.
curt wrote:I am angry that I have been deceived. Does that not resonate with you? I have spent my whole life as a Mormon believing and now all of this!!!
curt, that resonates with me. I hear, ya man! I’ve gone through the gammit of emotions also, including anger, feelings of betrayal, and hopeless withdrawal not know if I even care anymore about any of it.I appreciate this site has been a positive influence for me to get past only having the emotional reactions, and sincerely seek answers and approaches that help me to decide what to do with the info I’ve come across.
I have decided to stay in the church, renewing my faith in a personal way because I can’t seem to go back to TBM thinking, and I keep involved in posting on subjects on this forum to help me get to finding peace for myself in making sense of it all. I hope you’ll stay around too. I think many of us feel like you do. I hope its helpful for you to realize that, and that there is a way to pass through the stages and come out enlightened. And if your path is different than mine…it helps me by learning from you.
Got any specific questions why Joseph’s claims around the origin of the BoM troubles you? Let’s hash it out!
curt, I probably should say very clearly that I also want you to contribute and express yourself here. I hope I’m not driving you away in any way. It is fine to express frustration. I hope that is clear. Again, I apologize if my response seemed like a personal attack of some kind. It wasn’t meant to be.
Old-Timer wrote:SamBee, go ahead and provide the link in a new thread about Strangites, if you want to do that – or here, if you just want to provide it.
The site seems to be down/defunct. I went looking for it. Very interesting, but seemingly not there anymore.
Hi Guys, I am new to this forum so I will be brief. I want to believe that the book is of godly origin, so I will say thats where my allegiance lies. That being said the thing that always enters my mind is that the book of Mormon could have been a group conspiracy. Does anyone know the education level of Oliver, Sydney, Hyrum, and others who aided in the work of translation. I think that would give insight to the question of whether the group writing could be a viable option. I find it hard to believe that all of them were “ignorant.”
Hey, Old-Timer, and others, no worries. I really didn’t take offense. We’re dealing with some emotional issues here and stuff like that is bound to happen from time to time. I apologize as well. On with the debate/discussion! Curt
Adam wrote:I want to believe that the book is of godly origin, so I will say thats where my allegiance lies.
That is a perfectly acceptable position Adam. It’s OK to see divine inspiration in the BofM, even if that might be different than the traditional view of it. You can even have a traditional belief in the BofM. If it works for you … go with it. Seriously. The BofM has been around 180+ years. Nobody, and I mean not a single person, has figured for sure (in a secular sense) what the real origin of the BofM was.
Adam wrote:That being said the thing that always enters my mind is that the book of Mormon could have been a group conspiracy. Does anyone know the education level of Oliver, Sydney, Hyrum, and others who aided in the work of translation. I think that would give insight to the question of whether the group writing could be a viable option. I find it hard to believe that all of them were “ignorant.”
Group conspiracy? That is a possibility. Anything is possible. The problem with groups and secrets though is this — the best way to keep a secret is to not tell anyone, and involve as few people as possible. The Rigdon-Spaulding theory is a group conspiracy theory involving Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and Sidney Rigdon at a minimum (although realistically, it would have to have had the involvement on some level of many many other people never saying or recording evidence that would break the conspiracy, like Joseph’s entire family to name a few).
The problem with group conspiracy theories in general when it comes to the BofM, is the conspirators had several falling outs and went through a major succession crisis. *If* it was a group conspiracy, the group kept almost perfect discipline throughout all those ordeals, including the temptation after Joseph Smith’s death to tell all or use their knowledge in support of one of the splinter groups.
Education levels:
Joseph Smith had some formal schooling, but not a lot. He was a voracious reader and was VERY well read IMO, especially concerning books on religion and occult mysticism. D. Michael Quinn documents this extensively.
Oliver Cowdery had a good education for his day. He was employed as a school teacher at various times in his life.
Sidney Rigdon was a trained and very experienced pastor. I can’t recall details of his formal education, but I think he was fairly well-educated. I don’t think any of the early Church leaders were college-educated. That was pretty rare in those days.
Brigham Young was not well-educated. He was literate though.
Adam wrote:Hi Guys,
I am new to this forum so I will be brief. I want to believe that the book is of godly origin, so I will say thats where my allegiance lies. That being said the thing that always enters my mind is that the book of Mormon could have been a group conspiracy. Does anyone know the education level of Oliver, Sydney, Hyrum, and others who aided in the work of translation. I think that would give insight to the question of whether the group writing could be a viable option. I find it hard to believe that all of them were “ignorant.”
The recent Craig Criddle work does a good job of showing the involvement of each in the “group,” and the time frame for each one’s participation (previously linked in this thread). Is it foolproof? No. But the most plausible in my mind so far.
As always, I could be wrong…
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