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For me the truly unsettling, ungodly things about Joseph are what happened in Nauvoo: polyandry, polygamy and blood oaths. My question is simple: How do I reconcile Joseph as a fallen prophet in 21st century church? If he fell, and potentially the Temple is suspect (blood oaths/Masonic influence) how do I figure out which is what and how do I fit in at Church if Joseph is fallen and most post 1841 doctrines are suspect at best?
I do think it’s possible Joseph was a fallen prophet, or at least that some of what he did was not the will of God. I think you reconcile it the way you reconcile all of the other dichotomies in the church – decide what you do believe and ignore the rest. Or maybe think of him inspired but not in all things. I have my ups and downs spiritually and in between I just hold on and fake it till I make it. I have different areas where I feel inspired about certain things/principles. But how to actually implement them/live them and fill in the gaps is a completely different thing. And on top of that who knows if all that Joseph said and did was truly inspired. When I give a blessing sometime I am amazed at what is being said and I truly feel like an instrument in gods hands. Other things in that blessing might be just me filling in the blanks. Maybe that’s what faith is for- filling in the blanks. ( I don’t mean that condescending. I really mean “maybe”).
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Every person has to make that decision on his or her own. There are lots of possibilities – far more than just hero or villain, purely inspired prophet or fallen prophet. Ultimately, all I can say is that, objectively, he appears not to be close to of some of the prophets in the Old Testament when it comes to “issues” – especially the “greatest ones”, like Abraham, Moses and Isaiah. If we can call them prophets, I see no reason why we can’t call Joseph a prophet.
Ray said Quote:objectively, he appears not to be close to some of the prophets in the Old Testament when it comes to “issues” – especially the “greatest ones”, like Abraham, Moses and Isaiah
. My question is: I have never heard Isaiah populate this list before and wonder if you could expand on what the Bible tells us about his human nature. I have frequently heard from Terryl Givens and other progressive LDS scholars discussion regarding Abraham (lied several times for personal gain and his lies almost brought destruction on a city) Noah (Drunkenness, nakedness, showing wrath to his son for pointing out his behavior). Moses (manslaughter and coverup). Jonah (Fled his calling as Prophet). Etc Etc. Could you expound about on Isaiah Ray? A quick search doesn’t bring up much. big thanks!
VikingCompass wrote:For me the truly unsettling, ungodly things about Joseph are what happened in Nauvoo: polyandry, polygamy and blood oaths. My question is simple:
How do I reconcile Joseph as a fallen prophet in 21st century church? If he fell, and potentially the Temple is suspect (blood oaths/Masonic influence) how do I figure out which is what and how do I fit in at Church if Joseph is fallen and most post 1841 doctrines are suspect at best?
There is no way for me to be convinced that polygamy was godly. I try – and it takes effort to block out thoughts of the ceremonies’ origins – to find the good in the temple for me – now.
Isaiah fathered a child with a prostitute and claimed it was so he could name it as a sign to Israel. Seriously?!
Who knows. Maybe he was more than a mere man or maybe he was narcissistic individual. He fits both persona depending on who you listen to or what you read Bear wrote:And on top of that who knows if all that Joseph said and did was truly inspired. When I give a blessing sometime I am amazed at what is being said and I truly feel like an instrument in gods hands. Other things in that blessing might be just me filling in the blanks. Maybe that’s what faith is for- filling in the blanks. ( I don’t mean that condescending. I really mean “maybe”).
I’ve been pondering ideas from this Dan Vogel video. Fwiw….
Old-Timer wrote:Isaiah fathered a child with a prostitute and claimed it was so he could name it as a sign to Israel.
Seriously?!
Are you sure you aren’t talking about Hosea who married a prostitute?
Quote:
The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
Nope, I’m talking about Isaiah – but Hosea is another good example. Old-Timer wrote:Nope, I’m talking about Isaiah – but Hosea is another good example.
Hmm… google is failing me then. I’d love to see a reference if you remember where it is. Thanks!
Wow. I’m getting old, and my mind must be going. How could I confuse “prophetess” with “prostitute”? 😳 Ignore my faulty memory of that verse.
:thumbdown: 🙄 Please ignore everything I say here, if I’m not telling you anything new. But… Before you decide Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet, I encourage you to learn a lot about him, if you haven’t already.
I would start with his writings, including the Doctrine and Covenants. When you read that does it sound like it was written by an evil person?
The King Follett sermon was one of his last sermons – test that out too in your mind.
I like the biography “Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling” by Richard Bushman. It shows Joseph “warts and all” but was written by a believing Mormon scholar. It includes info, of course, about Joseph and polygamy – he did it against his will, only to submit to God, the way he told it.
It reminds me of how Brigham Young described his first reaction to polygamy. I think this is hilarious to read now, but I wasn’t there and I wasn’t him:
Some of these my brethren know what my feelings were at the time Joseph revealed the doctrine; I was not desirous of shrinking from any duty, nor of failing in the least to do as I was commanded, but it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin…Journal of Discourses 3:266 (Jul. 14, 1855)
Is polygamy bad? Well Abraham did it. It seems bizarre to you and me in our culture, but what is essentially bad about it? Is it worse than modern people living together?
I believe no prophet has been perfect (only Jesus was) but they were chosen by God to lead the church during their time, so apparently they were good enough. Based on the stories about them, I think I have a long way to go to reach even their level of spiritual progress.
Quote:Is polygamy bad? Well Abraham did it. It seems bizarre to you and me in our culture, but what is essentially bad about it? Is it worse than modern people living together?
We have plenty of threads in our archives about the issues with polygamy. Let’s not go there in this thread. Suffice it to say that polygamy / polyandy / plural marriage is a HUGE issue for lots of people who have studied it extensively. Not for some; absolutely for others.
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