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1topen wrote:
I still have a problem with this, why do we have to keep on making allowances for Joseph’s behavior. The mistakes he made are not just regular natural man ‘misdemeanors’. They are huge. lets be honest, he would be in jail if he was alive today! I look at my husband, my brother, my father and my father in law, in fact I can think of 10 other men that I am close to between the ages of 18 and 65 that are all more honorable than Joseph Smith was. I get tired of hearing excuses about him. Ok so maybe he was a prophet despite his crimes. Perhaps Warren Jeff’s is too?
I don’t think I view the Q of 12 as sinless, but I do think they are the best of men who have a great testimony of the Atonement. Great testimonies of the atonement only come if people repent so I imagine that they have and do repent and that perhaps their sins aren’t my business as long as God trusts them.
I see that JS made mistakes. I see that the history is murky and strange but I have never heard anything conclusive that convinced me Joseph committed “crimes”. Even the part about marrying a 14 yr old — something that was not against the law at the time. I love how Ray shared that Joseph was the most chastized man in the D&C and those were just the times that were publically recorded.
I guess what it really comes down to is whether or not God used him and trusted him. If God did, who am I to argue with who he chose? And if Joseph did sin profoundly, how much of that is my business? God said he would remove joseph out of his place if he led the church astray. He died young. Perhaps it was time. If Joseph wasn’t a prophet, well then anyone who doesn’t follow has anything to worry about. And if we place our trust and our testimonies in men, then we misplace our trust. The question is if JS was a prophet….not if he was a perfect man and can prove that to us. How many times did he try to get the people to understand that? Seems we are still struggling with the same thing.
I think of this from time to time. I know how to forgive people. I know forgiveness is good. Just because you forgive (or eventually forgive) someone, does not mean that you have to trust them immediately if ever. IMO JS has a bad track record. I forgive him because he is human .. I forgive him for anything he might have done wrong or even just things I think he might have handled wrong, however I don’t trust him. He claimed to have been a “Prophet” and that is something I find I can no longer trust either. Two “Huge” things for me : Golden Plates .. Angel equipped with sword to “Handle” Ema. IMO flat out lies. – Makes it difficult for me to believe other claims. DON’T mean to be so absolute or “Rude”, JUST to show where I am coming from.
The TR interview asks if we “Believe or have faith or w/e in The Restoration of the Gospel” .. IMO IOW I need to believe that JS was and did what he said he did (The big “Things” anyway). And I have faith in certain things but just not much of what JS claimed to have seen, heard etc. I think I could beat myself over the head again and again trying to believe he was a “Prophet” again OR justifying my feelings of not beleiving in him at all BUT I think I will stick with what I feel now and be happy with it .. So my answer probably not .. there is always a possibility .. or a part-time kind of thing that could have happened but who knows .. My conscience brings me towards finding out how I feel about the “Prophet” now and do I trust him in being a reasonable person. Which I do think he seems pretty nice.
Peaceandjoy, my “fiestiness” flairs occasionally, but it almost always is in situations where people are condemning and rejecting others who lived VERY different lives in VERY different situations. I have absolutely no personal knowledge, based on actual experience, of how I would act or what I would do if I had the type of vision Joseph claimed to have had – especially if I had it when I was 14 years old. That experience / claim can be analyzed in many, many ways, but I personally believe Joseph believed he saw God, the Father, and Jesus, the Christ. I have had to learn to be humble when it comes to my beliefs and opinions. I’ve had to learn to not get compulsive and obsessive about some things about which I feel strongly – and that’s something I haven’t mastered yet. I am more defensive of Joseph than some, because I see myself in him in many ways – and I see myself making many of his mistakes (and worse) if I had been in his shoes and his situation.
I don’t mean that arrogantly in any way. I don’t mean that I am something special – or that God would call me to be a prophet or lead a new religious movement. That very concept scares the Hell out of me. I’m quite sure I would have flamed out young and hard – much like Joseph did.
However, I KNOW I would have tried my hardest and been sincere throughout my successes and failures. I only HOPE I would have been as dedicated and resilient as he was – that I would have “endured to the end” as he did.
I’m NOT trying to convince anyone in this thread that Joseph was a prophet of God. Honestly, I’m not. My reaction isn’t to someone who says, “I just can’t see it. I just don’t think he was a prophet.” My reaction is to comments that take someone in whom I see so much of myself and focus SOLELY on his weaknesses and mistakes and failures and shortcomings. It’s not that I take it personally, per se, but rather that I want to defend someone for whom I feel a kinship of sorts – especially from descriptions that simply miss the chaotic nature of his time and reflect perspectives that simply didn’t exist for him.
Let me say it this way:
I don’t think Joseph would be a good apostle right now –
but I also am convinced that Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson would have been even greater failures in Joseph’s shoes. Those men as they are now would be totally inappropriate for the founding of a new religion. Founding a new religion, especially amid intense persecution in a wild, frontier environment, requires exactly the type of man Joseph was – and God has to use those who can do what needs to be done in the time it needs to be done. Likewise, Brigham Young couldn’t have filled Joseph’s role or Gordon’s / Thomas’ role, and not one of them could have filled Brigham’s role. I simply think we do each and every one of them a tremendous dis-service when we compare them to each other, because we generally miss their unique contributions in the focus on their weaknesses and over-estimate their abilities to be someone other than they are. Part of my “reconciliation” of Joseph (and Brigham) as a prophet is my recognition that he just might have been the ONLY person available at the time in that location who could have done what would be required –
and my even deeper recognition that I need to thank God every single day that it wasn’t me who was in that situation. I’m fairly certain I would have failed miserably – and, honestly, I’m not sure I know ANYONE closely in whom I am confident in their ability to succeed ANY better than Joseph and Brigham – and, by extension, even Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson. I would say read everything you can about Joseph. He has been lied about to an extraordinary degree though… So I would also say, when you read something about Joseph, look up the person that wrote/said it, try to understand their relationship to Joseph, and their motivation for writing it. And very importantly note the date it was written/said. These kinds of things make all the difference in the world. I read a book called Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy that dramatically influenced my opinion of JS. Has anyone else read this?It asserts that JS never did have more than one wife. Which I know may sound crazy to many–yet I found the evidence very convincing. I believe it was written by a former FLDS couple by the name of Price.
Some of the points/claims (as I remember them) made in the book:
1. No descendent of JS has been found–except by Emma.
I looked into this. The 8 or so most likely candidates have been DNA tested with negative results. Their family legends are proven to be false.
2. Joseph denied he had more than one wife just 2 months before he died. Many close to him denied it as well–his mother, Emma, and his son Joseph.
3. The Book of Mormon (which JS produced) preaches against polygamy. In all 3 instances where it is mentioned, it is condemned. Also, the original 101st Section of the D+C soundly condemns polygamy.
4. There are no original documents recording marriages to other women. Most of the claims of JS practicing polygamy originate many years after his death.
Obviously there is much more to the story. But this book settled my misgivings about Joseph and cleared up a lot of murky Church history for me. I was surprised again and again when I realized many things I “knew” about Church history and the people involved were essentially foundationless.
allquieton, fwiw, as the resident parser (*grin*), I simply have to say that it is easy to deny marriages that aren’t recognized legally as such – just like many modern polygamists can rightly say they are “married” to only one woman (because the other women to whom they are “sealed” aren’t recognized legally as legitimate wives). I agree it is vitally important to try to understand the fluctuating attempts to understand and practice “plural marriage” – but I think it’s too simplistic to say Joseph never had more than one wife, even if that’s true from a technical, legal standpoint. Ray, It may sound farfetched b/c of the Mormon story we have inherited. But the book is arguing that JS literally never had more than one wife, legally, spiritually, or any which way. (At least not while he was alive.) No word games or technicalities. And like I said, it’s a whole book. The case doesn’t rest entirely on lack of documents or JS’s denial of polygamy. There’s a whole body of evidence.
I just brought up a couple points. But I did notice you didn’t mention point #1 or #3. I wonder what you think of these…
The authors used to have some chapters of the book posted on their website. I think anyone interested in JS should read it. I think if you google the title it will come up–Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy.
Here, I found it. Ray, You know what, no one knows for sure what happened. But polygamy is my most sensitive issue for many different reasons. So, I get defensive also.
I lash out because I’m still so mad inside. I don’t know, I just am. As LaLaLove said it is very hard to trust. It is hard to not judge, the one thing I don’t want to do. I know you think he was the best man for the job at the time. But I don’t know that because I didn’t know him. So I’m not sure what to do because I will never know him. And you can’t trust any books about him good or bad. It’s frustrating.
Oh, and Allquieton, what about Doctrine and Covenants section 132. It seem obvious from that that he did practice polygamy I am currently reading “In Sacred Loneliness”, which give detailed biographies for each of Joseph’s plural wives. I think the evidence for plural wives is much more compelling than evidence that JS fought against plural wives. The FLDS church seems to have a history of denying JS involvement in polygamy, so I’m not sure they are the most reliable source. allquieton wrote:
Some of the points/claims (as I remember them) made in the book:1. No descendent of JS has been found–except by Emma.
I looked into this. The 8 or so most likely candidates have been DNA tested with negative results. Their family legends are proven to be false.
It may have been difficult for some women to know exactly who the father was, as many of the first women JS married were already married to other men and they continued to live with their first husband after their polygamous marriage to JS. As a budding geneticist, I would be interested to see what DNA testing has actually been carried out on the potential decendants of JS. This many generations out, it would be quite difficult to interpret the standard “paternity” tests. There are some genetic tests that may be informative, but once you are about three generations removed even the most sophisticated genetic tests become difficult to interpret (or course if they are actually using JS actual DNA it would make it somewhat easier). The results are likely to be more subjective, with the non-believer interpretting the tests as proving family legends false, where the believer would likely say it doesn’t exclude paternity, but neither does it prove paternity. Some accounts have suggested that JS may have used the services of an abortionist if any of his wives became pregnant.
allquieton wrote:
2. Joseph denied he had more than one wife just 2 months before he died. Many close to him denied it as well–his mother, Emma, and his son Joseph.
His son is hardly a reliable source due to his age at JS death. There are also quotes by Emma and his mother that suggest he was involved in polygamy. There are also private journal entries and sworn affidavits by his polygamous wives (who would be considered close to JS). JS phrasing of his denial was parsed in a particular manner to maintain his integrity without revealing his doctrine of Celestial (plural) marriage.
allquieton wrote:3. The Book of Mormon (which JS produced) preaches against polygamy. In all 3 instances where it is mentioned, it is condemned. Also, the original 101st Section of the D+C soundly condemns polygamy.
D&C 101 was written and ratified when JS was not at the church conference. D&C 132 supports plural marriage. The Book of Mormon speaks positively of wine, does this prove JS did not reveal the WoW? The BoM presents a trinitarian view of God, does this refute God, Christ and HG being distinct personages in the Godhead?
allquieton wrote:
4. There are no original documents recording marriages to other women. Most of the claims of JS practicing polygamy originate many years after his death.
This is not true. There are multiple diary accounts of plural marriage written at the time of the plural marriages. BY and Richards both record marriages of JS to other women. There are records of multiple sealings to other women (often after they were married).
allquieton wrote:
Obviously there is much more to the story. But this book settled my misgivings about Joseph and cleared up a lot of murky Church history for me. I was surprised again and again when I realized many things I “knew” about Church history and the people involved were essentially foundationless.Unfortunately, I think you may need to re-evaluate JS and polygamy, if you are interested in historical accuracy. I highly recommend “In Sacred Loneliness”.
allquieton, That link you provided is from the Restoration Book Store. I have some CoC and RLDS bloggers that visit my blog fairly frequently. Until about the 1970’s RLDS vehemently denied that Joseph practiced polygamy and produced all sorts of affadavits like the book you mention. As you’re probably aware, the RLDS changed their name to Community of Christ (CoC), started giving women the priesthood, and many other organizational changes. Anyway, a small group of members has reconstituted the RLDS name and is still trying to promote the idea that Joseph never practiced polygamy.
The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph practiced polygamy by well-respected historians: Richard Bushman, Todd Compton, Fawn Brodie, Kathryn Daynes, just to name a few. Even the CoC prophet, Stephen Veazey recently proclaimed in World Conference this past April that Joseph practiced polygamy–a stunning reversal for a church that vehemently claimed Joseph was a monogamist for over 100 years. I blogged about Veazey’s comment earlier this year. See
http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/04/amazing-coc-statement/ So, what I am saying is that there are people who believe the earth is flat and the Apollo moon landings were fakes. I’d put Restoration Bookstore in this same category when they claim Joseph never practiced polygamy.
As far as JS was concerned, I do not have the knowledge, nor the right to pass any judgment on him. Oliver Cowdery was about 1 year younger than Smith and was with JS from during the translation of the BOM. He was the second Elder of the Church, anointed and ordained and served faithfully until his excommunication in 1838. Cowdery’s response to the excommunication charges delineate all of the sincere disagreements that he had with JS. http://www.lds-mormon.com/oliver.shtml One can believe, as I have, that JS was a prophet of God, but I also believe that Oliver Cowdery was a Prophet as well. I cannot diminish him because he was “second Elder”, in the church and not first Elder. Cowdery was as much a part of the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ as Smith was and if I deny the truths that he taught, I will be denying the gospel just as much as if I deny the truths that JS taught.
I understand, peaceandjoy. I really do. As I said in something else I just posted, sometimes the best people can do is agree to disagree and continue to worship and discuss together despite differences. Please understand that I respect you and appreciate your non-contentious tone, even as I personally see this particular issue differently. I have spent years engaged in organizational change management, and it’s far more difficult than most people realize – especially when the members of the organization bring very different beliefs and practices into the organization. (Think about how hard it is to change what happens in only one school or school district – or to establish a successful charter school. I can tell you that such an endeavor alone is extremely difficult.) That experience also tempers how I view organizational leaders and those who create organizations – especially those that literally are involved in making the rules AFTER the organizations have been created and those that are open to on-going change. It’s a brutally hard and frightening thing to do at the top levels.
Peaceandjoy wrote:Oh, and Allquieton, what about Doctrine and Covenants section 132. It seem obvious from that that he did practice polygamy
Apparently Brigham wrote 132. There is no copy of it in Joseph’s writing. Brigham said the original was destroyed and he produced a copy of it in his own handwriting, which was then published.
Interestingly it was not included in the D+C until 1876.
Just an administrative request:This is not a post about polygamy. There are other posts about polygamy in our archives. Obviously, polygamy plays a part of the central question, but let’s not let this thread devolve into just another post about polygamy, ok?
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