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I hope it’s okay for me to ask a question that has probably already been asked. If I need to be pointed to a particular thread, I understand. For those who believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, is there
anythingyou could find out about him that would change your mind? I could restate the question different ways and with “for instances”, etc., but that’s the crux of it. If you don’t think this is a useful question, I am interested in hearing why not.
It would be best for me if only those with a belief in him as a prophet responded, but it’s a free country!
Thanks. I know (really know) that this site is true. .. . . ly helping me in a difficult time.
Ann, my only response is this: how much worse can it get for Joseph Smith? Anyone with 15 minutes, an internet connection and an iPad can find troves of accusations of the most heinous crimes: pedophilia, solicitation to commit murder, embezzlement, larceny, fraud, aggravated assault, carnal knowledge, solicitation to commit carnal knoweldge, etc., etc., etc. For anyone who has been exposed to even a small number of the accusations against JS, and still believes him to be a prophet, I can’t imagine there would be anything anyone could say that would dislodge them from their position. If soliciting murder and establishing an ornate pedophilia ring won’t do it, what could? Please note, I’m not commenting on the truthfulness of any of the accusations against Joseph – they may all be true, or they may all be false, or somewhere in between.
If it were proven to me that he was an intentional fraud who made the whole up without believing any of it. Knowing what I can know, I just don’t see it that way.
I think that if there was something written in his hand saying it was all a lie that would be the final nail in the coffin for me. I have some doubts about some of the things that are claimed about him but I haven’t lost all my faith a or at least some of my hope. If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw. I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.
I think the problem is that while JS did misbehave himself sometimes (like all of us), a lot of lies were made up about him too. Anyone can spread rumors. Have you ever heard any about yourself? Some of the ones I heard about myself are completely unbelievable. A lot of the prophets in the Bible – Adam, Noah, David, Solomon and apostles – Thomas, Peter etc all sinned and went against God at some point.
So I believe in a flawed Joseph Smith, it makes him more likeable and human.
What would put me off? Definitive proper evidence that he was a proper Satanist, took LSD and ate hamsters.
Ann wrote:For those who believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, is there anything you could find out about him that would change your mind?
Depends on your definition of Prophet.
JS was a revelator – he created (or translated) new scripture with new and different spins on old themes. Nothing he might do would invalidate that – short somehow admitting that his intent was to manipulate and control people.
I guess it goes like this: JS had weaknesses. Sometimes his weaknesses might have influenced his prophetic role. I think that sounds reasonable but it isn’t a deal breaker in and of itself. For hope in the restoration to be completely extinguished (for me) there would need to be some clear evidence that his prophetic role was invented to feed his weaknesses. IOW a written statement or credible verbal account to the gullibility of his followers – particularly those women that married him polygamously – would be a deal breaker for me.
That is not what I see here. There is what I might describe as a preponderance of the evidence that JS believed what he was selling. That even if some of the more miraculous events were fabricated, it was all done in furtherance of a noble cause.
OTOH If you define Prophet as someone who lives a holy and pure life worthy of communion with a deity that can’t tolerate the least of sins – then you can take your pick of expectation shattering details on JS.
What would it mean to you personally if a current sitting church president were discovered to have a porn addiction? What if it was something that he had struggled with during earlier periods but had finally overcome?
I don’t think there’s anything I could learn about Joseph Smith that would change my mind abut his role as a prophet. I say this because I’ve learned a lot about him, good and bad, that hasn’t changed my mind so far. As I learn more about his life and teachings he becomes a complex character, not just a bright eyed kid in a puffy shirt. My understanding of the role of the prophet becomes more nuanced as I realize that he was a human being called to do a great work.
Ann, under the free country rule, I will also comment. First, you are perfectly OK in asking a question that has already been asked. Just because there was a thread 2 years ago, you can ask again, because a dead thread is just a book, an active thread is a discussion.
As for JS, like kumahito and SamBee have said, the existence of a presumed problem is far from proof. Confirmation Bias rules the day when it comes to JS. For those that don’t believe Mormonism, they simply accept on their face, all accusations. Those that are committed to Mormonism dismiss accusations as libelous.
Consider some parallels in modern society. In the recent election in the US, supporters of the President have presented BO as a great leader, a successful president, and a guy you can trust, while decrying MR as a fraud hell-bent on taking the country down. Supporters of MR have described him as a uniter, a business man who knows the secret of how to turn the economy around, and portray BO as a socialist and the embodiment of failure and partisan bickering. Most every person that reads the two descriptions above, will gravitate toward one of them as being right, and the other as inflammatory lies. It doesn’t matter which you believe, just trust that half the country disagrees with you.
Many that assume the worst about JS look to sources like William Law and David Whitmer, but we know that people like that had axes to grind. In the case of DW, he tried to discredit JS. Yet DW tried to have it both ways, still promoting the BofM and his prominence as a BofM Witness. People with a confirmation bias against JS use DW’s words to show that JS was a bad guy, but dismiss DW’s words that the BofM was divine. In other words, people see what they want to see, and they call what they see, “proof”.
I’ll give you a specific example. Decades after JS’s life, there was the question among detractors about why there seemed to be no children from JS’s many marriages, other than his children with Emma. The rumor kicked up that John C Bennett, a physician, had performed secret abortions. Those that assume the worst, believe this implicitly. Yet, it would mean that the questionable physician, best known for his work with chicken breeding, but otherwise an aggressive and opportunistic schemer, had come to Nauvoo with medical technology of the 1830’s American Frontier, yet somehow was able to perform procedures that were still years away from rare use in major European cities and two decades away from practice in the US. It all depends on your bias.
I personally don’t think that JS was anything other than genuine. But I have no proof either way.
My favorite bit of hearsay about Joseph Smith that doesn’t seem to be quite as well known as things like the BoA translation issues, polyandry, and treasure hunting antics is an account about him drinking whiskey and gloating about being a “profitable prophet” better than Mohammed and Moses while he was completely drunk. To be honest it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if this accusation is actually true. Personally I think these early Church leaders just took the general idea that there might as well be “prophets” now not just in the past and ran with it whether they were delusional, pious frauds, or opportunistic and self-serving con-men. I don’t believe there is anything I haven’t already heard about Joseph Smith that would make me think, “That’s it now I definitely need to resign from the Church and make a big stink about it.” The way I see it, continuing to set the false expectations that there should be this level of dependence on men that were/are supposed to speak for God in a reliable way to begin with is a bigger problem now than anything Joseph Smith did all these years ago. No, I don’t believe Joseph Smith was anything like what the Church claims he was but I’m also not convinced that there have ever been any prophets that really deserved this level of automatic trust whether Moses, Isaiah, etc. so who can I really compare Joseph Smith against if not other men? Even if he was worse than average I don’t think you can really blame current Church leaders and members for that now. It’s almost like people wanting to believe the founding fathers were these heroic and nearly flawless men without necessarily wanting to know about some of the less-than-flattering details of their lives.
I’m thinking. I have a lot to sort out. I’m never intending to leave the church as it exists for me in my home and ward. I have assured my husband of that. And I would never make a big stink. But I will go crazy if the portrayal of Joseph Smith that I grew up with persists. I have kids to consider. Nobody’s perfect isn’t quite sufficient in this situation. I’ve never expected leaders to be perfect and know they’re products of their time. Joseph got drunk. (Fine.) Joseph married other men’s wives. ( ) I’ll have more questions when I read the comments again, and I so appreciate you all.
Part of my baggage: I remember when I was really young and learning about early church (Brigham Young – era) polygamy. It struck me as something a loving God would never ask of me. Still does. I asked my mom what she thought, because she also did nothing to turn me away from the understanding that the practice would resume at some point. She said, “Well, I guess I would take some comfort in knowing that I was the first.” I thought, Really, Mom? Are you kidding me? That’s what you’re reduced to? You’d have to know more about my good parents to appreciate how horrified I was. But I could cover over the manhole in my mind with the idea that polygamy was probably about growing a church in the desert, and in a certain way, the law of consecration in practice. It certainly couldn’t be. . . .what it appears Joseph did.
Look down at my signature line vvvv Joseph Smith, when he was good, gave the world some really good inspiring things.
When Joseph Smith wasn’t good, he hurt people, set up a precedents and institutions that caused irreparable harm to some people.
He did both of those things. People who want to prove he was good or evil both have mountains of evidence with which to make their point.
BTW The pedophile claim bothers me, marrying young girls did take advantage of their youth and inexperience relative to his position of power, but marrying as young as 14 was not unknown at that time, and legally, I doubt the girls would have been considered underage.
For me, no I can’t imagine anything changing my mind on Joseph’s prophetic status. I think I’ve heard the worst, it’s only up from there. As Brian J once said: “Even if he saw himself as a fraud, he still got some things right!” Does that mean I accept everything he ever said as directly from God? Not by a long shot. It is still our responsibility to get our own confirmation through the spirit on each item that we follow. It is not in our doctrine to put the responsibility for our actions on anyone else – even if it is found in our culture. I see obedience after questioning as a very Mormon principle.
Roadrunner wrote:If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw.
I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.
Ouch! Even the Bishop? Having been a Branch Pres (Bishop lite) that kind of trust is scary.
mackay11 wrote:Roadrunner wrote:If it were proven that JS’s marriages to already married women were consummated it might be the proverbial final straw.
I recently asked my wife (a lovely, caring, good person, but also a TBM and an RM) if the bishop or the prophet told her she was supposed to marry them while still married to me. She said “possibly” and that she’d have to pray about it. It made me a little depressed but also jealous that I don’t have that kind of faith.
Ouch! Even the Bishop? Having been a Branch Pres (Bishop lite) that kind of trust is scary.
Yes, indeed – Ouch! But I was asking for trouble when I asked the question. To add a little context we were literally driving to the Mountain Meadow Massacre site and I was explaining to my children why it happened and I said that we ourselves are responsible for our decisions and that we cannot “blame” our decisions on our leaders. She got a little angry and said at least we have to pray about instructions we don’t agree with. So it probably was a a little tit-for-tat, but I think if the prophet or one of the 12 asked her (and she knows Pres Monson and a couple of the 12) that she might consider it.
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