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I seem to see and hear a couple conflicting messages at times at church as to whether we are like other christian churches or we are not. I sometimes wonder if the church likes to make members feel unique or different than others, as a motivation to keep oneself in the world but not of it. We want to be special, or as Tolle puts it, we want our story to be known by everyone else, and that makes us feel important. But I came across this quote from Joseph Smith and it reminded me that respecting other religions is really the most Christ-like way to be.
Quote:In a Sermon on Sunday, July 9th 1843, Joseph Smith proclaimed himself a friend to all, having “no enmity against anyone.” He asked, “Why is it this babbler gains so many followers, and retains them?” He explained his secret simply: “Because I possess the principle of love.” Offering the world “a good heart and a good hand,” he declared himself “as ready to die for a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or any other denomination” as “for a Mormon.”
Narrowing the gap between Latter-Day Saints and those of other denominations, the prophet asserted,
“we do not differ so far in our religious views.”He declared the Saints’ faith ready to receive the truths of all others: “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.”Perhaps sometimes we are singled out from other churches that do not think Mormons are christian.
Perhaps at times we single ourselves out because we want to be a “peculiar” people.
Perhaps at times we think “the one true church” means everything not of this church is the church of the devil.
I just find it uncomfortable at church to have people compare religions, or point out things that are lacking in other religions that they have found is better in our church.
Why do we seem to do that as mormons? Is it a thing of pride? Is it possible the marketing arm of the church finds we can have missionaries convert more when there is brand separation from other christian churches?
Here is Elder Hafen’s message (as Steve-hpias pointed me to this article–I’ll refrain from my rant this time):
Quote:When a person considers how unique the church’s understanding of core doctrine differs drastically from the rest of Christianity, “It shouldn’t come as a big surprise that other Christian churches don’t know quite what to do with us.”
Did other religions distance themselves from the religion Joseph Smith established, which he thought was not so different? Or has our church taken steps to distinguish ourselves?
What do you all believe? When it comes down to it, are we more different than alike with other christian churches? Is that a good thing or bad thing? How do you think the church leaders views it as?
Hi Heber, What a great post you made! I have always loved those quotes from JS. I have some experiences with other churches, so would like to share my thoughts on your discussion. For those of you who have read my intro, you know I left the church once for two years to investigate the 7th Day Adventist church. In fact, the Spirit prompted me to do this during an lds fast and testimony meeting. During those two years of investigation I came to Christ in some profound ways. Two years later, the Spirit told me to return to the lds faith. At one point I prayed about Ellen G. White, the 7th day church and what God thought about other churches. Here is what the spirit told me: ” I work through all churches, and their members are all my children. Other churches are like stepping stones that can eventually lead people to the fullness of the gospel. Everyone is not ready for the fullness of the gospel at the same time, so I lead people to the churches that can help them the most at that particular time.” This is why I have no problem when people, like my daughter, share with me how God lead them to their denomination. She is, where she is suppose to be at this time. Her children attend the Christian private schools of her faith and have done so well. She attends their weekly Bible study classes and has really become a good Christian by being in this church. Yet, it is interesting because she has not taken her name off of the lds church records, so her visiting teachers, who live next door to her, come by regularly to just see how she is doing. Even her bishop came by once to help her with the problems she was having as a foster parent because he had been a foster parent. She told me recently how bad she felt because she had been so rude to them at times and even though she thinks the lds church is a cult and false church, she does understand there are very good people in the lds faith.
I remember when I was the P.R. person for our ward and was working with ‘Churches United’ in our area. I took a member of our ward with me to visit one of these other churches. The minister gave a wonderful sermon and this member was confused by it. She said, “Well, our church is the only one with the truth isn’t it ?” That just floored me! It is amazing how negatively programmed some lds members are in how they think about other churches. I know that the Ensign has had articles about what the great religious reformers have done to forge the path so the lds gospel could come forth. I have heard the church tell non-members to bring all their good from their religions and add it to ours. I actually tried to do that when I came back to the church because I loved the ‘prayer circles’ held in the 7th day churches. But, when I shared that with one of our stake presidents he actually got mad at me and said, “I don’t want to hear anymore about all the good things about the 7th church” and shut me up. Boy did that make me mad. I just really think that some people in the lds church have the need to feel superior to other churches just because they believe they are the one ‘true’ church.
I personally never think of the lds church as the ‘one true’ church. I just believe they have more of the fullness of the gospel and that is the only thing I try to share with others. I think this kind of problem existed in the early church too. Even Christ’s apostles were often discussing who would be greatest in the ‘kingdom’ of God. This is why I think it is so important to stay humble and teachable, otherwise we can’t learn the beautiful teachings that Christ wanted us to learn.
I think when it comes to the main ideas that are truly important, the big ideas of love and following Christ, we share 90% of that stuff with all other good and moral people around us in the world. The remaining 10% or less is what differentiates various sects and denominations. It depends on what people choose to focus on. In fact, I think that says a lot about what’s going on inside a person when we see what they focus on.
I think we get mixed messages at Church in the regard. I love that sermon from Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, It was a great reformation he wanted to dive into right before he was martyred. It was an unfinished reformation — the Grand Fundamental Principles of Mormonism.
I think, like was discussed on other threads, that personality types kind of take over. The personality type that is drawn to orthodoxy, to “black/white” paradigms are also the personality types that will dominate an organization. For these personality types, being “right”, being “certain” is more important than any other principle of the gospel; so, in this framework or mindset, it becomes impossible to “accept” other possibilities. That’s how I see it now, and, I imagine, it would be true of any organization that attempts to “persuade” people to it’s way of thinking, ie, religion, club, fraternity, corporation, political party, etc. I’m reading Rough Stone Rolling right now, and earlier today I read that while Joesph was in Washington D.C. fighting for redress for the Saints from the Missouri Wars, “Joseph insisted more than once that ‘all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved’.” –pg 395, RSR, by Richard Bushman. I’m still trying to figure out what I think of Joseph Smith anymore with what I’ve learned about his history, but regardless of his personal life I’m continuing to be more and more impressed with his teachings (which seem to part ways with modern Mormonism, at least culturally, quite a bit!). He obviously didn’t think you needed to be Mormon to find Jesus. Now, does salvation in this context equal exaltation? I like to think it does, because I doubt the Church was into the splitting of hairs over those two words in 1840 as it is today, but I’m hardly one who can say what Joseph meant; I think this shows, however, that Joseph definitely respected other churches, even if the LDS church today doesn’t follow his example as well all the time …
Wow, too much to cover in my couple minutes. I think Joseph spoke “both ways” at times. In his 1838 account of the first vision we all know the words of how the other churches were not complete. I do like quotes like these, they seem the most Christlike. Herodotus, I could be wrong but I don’t think the concept of Exaltation was developed by 1840. If that is the case most modern members would point to this statement in the context of the time and say the Terrestrial kingdom is “salvation” so what he said is absolutely technically correct — we just understand more today. I have a friend who says other religions will get exactly what they expect. They will be saved in “heaven”, they’re just missing out on the concept of Exaltation. I don’t know, I just have a hard time getting myself concerned at all about it.
Why do we like to feel that we have “more”? Ironically, and precariously, I think it can come very close to the “pride” that Pres. Benson used to warn us so much about. Pride is wanting to be above your neighbor – it’s a relational thing. Pride in this context is not “I really enjoy my car” – pride is: “my car is BETTER than my neighbors!” Humility and love are the opposite of pride, something for every human to remember.
Orson wrote:Wow, too much to cover in my couple minutes. I think Joseph spoke “both ways” at times. In his 1838 account of the first vision we all know the words of how the other churches were not complete. I do like quotes like these, they seem the most Christlike.
Herodotus, I could be wrong but I don’t think the concept of Exaltation was developed by 1840. If that is the case most modern members would point to this statement in the context of the time and say the Terrestrial kingdom is “salvation” so what he said is absolutely technically correct — we just understand more today. I have a friend who says other religions will get exactly what they expect. They will be saved in “heaven”, they’re just missing out on the concept of Exaltation. I don’t know, I just have a hard time getting myself concerned at all about it.
Why do we like to feel that we have “more”? Ironically, and precariously, I think it can come very close to the “pride” that Pres. Benson used to warn us so much about. Pride is wanting to be above your neighbor – it’s a relational thing. Pride in this context is not “I really enjoy my car” – pride is: “my car is BETTER than my neighbors!” Humility and love are the opposite of pride, something for every human to remember.
Knowing more about a subject doesn’t necessarily make one prideful. And if someone does know more about particular subject, I am not sure they should be embarrassed about that or diminish the significance of that just so that everyone feels equal. Aren’t we all trying to gain more wisdom? Isn’t that the goal?
Poppyseed wrote:Knowing more about a subject doesn’t necessarily make one prideful. And if someone does know more about particular subject, I am not sure they should be embarrassed about that or diminish the significance of that just so that everyone feels equal. Aren’t we all trying to gain more wisdom? Isn’t that the goal?
Yes, Poppy, that is the goal. And I agree knowing doesn’t make one prideful. But I hear people at church express it in ways that make it sound like they feel Mormons are the “chosen” people and further on the straight and narrow path than others…its not the testimony of what is right, but the feeling knowing the gospel message makes one “better” than others that smacks of Pride, to me. Just because I know about ordinance work for the dead in temples and other people in other religions don’t understand that principle, doesn’t mean I know more than my catholic friend. He knows WAY more about the NT than I do.
So who knows more? Me or my catholic friend? We just know different parts of truth in varying degrees. More important is what we do with our knowledge and how we change our hearts to whatever level of knowledge we have.
I do not think we should be embarrassed of our goals to seek more knowledge or of what we have and hide it under a bushel, but I think true
wisdommeans that knowledge only points one to realizing how much more there is to learn, and how little we really know about these subjects. Yes, be a missionary to share what you know with someone that needs to hear your message…but be open to realizing others’ stories and teachings can also have equallygreat learning and impact on us. Just my thought. To bring it back to the OP…I wish I heard more reverence and respect for other religions in the LDS church, not the feeling that because we have more truth, we are “better” people.
I liked the way itsmee2005 expressed it in her Intro:
itsmee2005 wrote:I am extremly non-judgemental and really believe that there is good in many religions and organization outside of the gospel. I also feel that quite often those that are out of the church are more intune to God than those who go every week to church.
That sounds a lot like Elder Hales’ message:
Quote:True disciples avoid being unduly judgmental of others’ views. Many of us have cultivated strong friendships with those who are not members of our Church. We need them, and they need us. As President Thomas S. Monson has taught, “Let us learn respect for others. … None of us lives alone—in our city, our nation, or our world.
Yes, I agree Poppy. Wisdom in humility is the goal. I guess I am just trying to say that it isn’t a competition. It’s not a competition. 
I could be way off track, but I really don’t concern myself these days with what reward I am going to get in the afterlife. I mean this in the best way, with a love for God, but God will do with me as He pleases when He finishes with me here. Whatever that is, I’m cool with it. I have too many other important things to worry about here and now besides what size trophy I get when I check out of life. I am more interested in seeing what I can do NOW to help out, and in creating as much exaltation on earth around me as I can manage with the talents and energy the Big Guy gave me. I feel like I am on the same team. We’re pals now.
I have a feeling that God appreciates anyone that helps out and puts a “shoulder to the wheel.” I think Joseph Smith felt that way most of the time too. Joseph was very loyal and appreciative of friends, regardless if they might “ere in doctrine” at times.
I have a couple of comments to this most interesting thread: 1) I believe that “one and only true church” is a dangerous thing, and a heavy burden to carry. The arrogance and rudeness that is all to frequently demonstrated by TBM’s is the result that most of us detest.
2) I agree completely with “Joseph insisted more than once that ‘all who would follow the precepts of the Bible, whether Mormon or not, would assuredly be saved’.” –pg 395, RSR, by Richard Bushman. The Church teaches, and I completely concur (assuming God is just and merciful) all mankind who ever has lived, who now lives, or who yet will live, will have the opportunity at least once to receive the gospel and its saving ordinances. This is why Mormons do temple work irrespective of the worthiness for the deceased. This goes for Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, New Age, agnostic and atheist. It is my belief that the critical variable is whether the individual lives up to the highest good he knows, and is looking for ways to increase his knowledge of good. My wife tells the story of experiencing her grandmother’s presence while doing her temple work. This is the same woman who in real life molested my wife as a very young infant, with resulting psychological damage well into adulthood. We are risking our own salvation, I suspect, by judging others to harshly. A quote I love: “There’s so much bad in the best of us, so much good in the worst of us, it’s hard to tell who should convert the rest of us.”
3) I do believe Mormonism is different from other belief system in some important ways.
The Church stresses priesthood authority ( which for me is not terribly significant, but I don’t have a strong opinion), but some other important doctrinal differences are:
The nature of God, as a loving Heavenly Father leading co-eternal intelligences to a greater good.
The story of the pre-existence, War in Heaven, and what that tells us about the nature of man and the nature of our mortality.
The importance of obedience to eternal truth (“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated – And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to the law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20-21) (That’s revolutionary theology).
The importance of free choice. (and I’m not talking politics, only).
Modern day revelation, open cannon, individuals can have the gift of the HG, and hence personal revelation.
Faith defined as a call to action, even when the result is not known or guaranteed. Service to our fellow men defined as an obligation we all share (hence non-paid ministry, total volunteer organization that makes us partly saviors to our brothers and sisters! (a non-mormon theologian taught me that one).
EVERYONE, is saved from mortal death to life everlasting, Exaltation comes to the most worthy (as defined by God, not imo by the Church)
Yeah I think I for sure used to think that the mormon church was the only church with truth. The first time I went to a christian church I felt the spirit during the music. I told my husband and he said that was impossible and that what I felt was not the spirit but maybe something less than the spirit and not the same. I also grew up believing that only mormons were blessed and that God did not bless anyone else because my mom told me this my whole life. I really thought that God only loved mormons. When I was 19 I watched It’s a Miracle and all these amazing stories from people of all faiths and I remember being so shocked. It was then I realized that God blesses not just mormons but cares about other people as well. I guess I need to think about or remember this more. Quote:I am more interested in seeing what I can do NOW to help out, and in creating as much exaltation on earth around me as I can manage with the talents and energy the Big Guy gave me. I feel like I am on the same team. We’re pals now.
Brian, I like that. Thank you.
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