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I’m sorry, but I just need to vent. One of my best friends in the ward recently told me that she doesn’t believe “a word of it” (i.e. Mormonism) any more but will continue to attend Sacrament Meeting and Sunday School with her husband. We’ve known each other for over 25 years now, and have always been pretty open with one another. She knows I have a problem with a number of the Church’s policies and with the position the Brethren take on certain issues (e.g. gay rights). We marched together with Mormons Building Bridges last year in Salt Lake City’s Pride Parade. It’s gotten to the point where she appears to just be looking for reasons to justify leaving the Church, and the more dirt she can find on Joseph Smith, the happier she is. I want her to feel free to express her feelings and beliefs to me, but after the conversation we just had, I just feel like crying. If I were to leave Mormonism, I don’t know where I’d go. I can’t just stop believing in the LDS understanding of the nature of God or of our understanding of the Plan of Salvation. These things make so much sense to me. They are so much more logical than traditional Christian doctrines on of the same topics. It’s just that I’m beginning to wonder if there is anybody left in the Church that I can relate to. I don’t feel like I belong. I don’t fit the Mormon mold and yet the last thing I want to do is become an ex-Mormon. I don’t plan to leave the Church, and I’m always looking for reasons to stay, but culturally, I suck at being a Mormon. I guess that’s the bottom line.
I don’t even know what I’m asking for. I guess as I said before, I just need to vent.
So sorry, Katzpur. 😥 Katzpur, sorry to hear about your struggles right now. While I was reading your post, I thought about those shows that are about kids who choose to leave the FLDS church or the Amish community. When somebody leaves a tight-knit community like that, they lose everything they know. It’s common for them to completely abandon all of the beliefs they have, instead of evaluating which ones they agree with and which ones they disagree with. In the process, they sometimes throw out their values and morals along with their faith. The people who are able to keep an even keel in their lives, and make a smooth adjustment are the ones who have some link to their past, whether that is a person, or some of their beliefs, or whatever. If your friend is ready to dump everything, maybe the best thing to do would be to simply let her know that you’ll always be there for her. Even if you don’t see eye-to-eye on everything, you still accept her as a person, just like you want her to accept you, even if you don’t want to leave the church. It’s okay to have friends from every walk of life, and to recognize and accept the diversity of viewpoints and beliefs that comes along with that. Just be there for her, so she has a friend to come back to if she needs it. I would tell her that most people that find out a bunch of the details of the history of the church feel very betrayed and upset. I would also tell her the ones that are the happiest don’t make a career out of Mormon bashing the rest of their life. Tell her that you hope she is able to progress out of this fairly predictable phase and can become happier whatever she decides what she is going to do. I hear you…First, I’d keep the relationship with your friend intact. I had to apologize to someone for pushing the limits a bit too much recently. I felt better afterwards. Also, recognize that LOOKING for reasons not to believe in Joseph Smith is a way of your friend coping with what she’s found– particularly if she is a black and white thinker. I find myself resisting the urge to “nourish the faithless seed” by looking for reasons to justify not having to believe anymore. Let’s face it, it’s a hard religion to stick with when you are not happy with it given the tithing and cultural demands. Regarding feeling alone — a tough one. I have friendships with members of the church that help me feel connected. I play in a band with two LDS people, and get to enjoy their character, honesty, and reliabiilty, without the doctrine. I enjoy that. There are a couple people I talk to at church about administration or other issues, but never get into doctrine or problems with my testimony. I also helped out with putting on an activity recently — worked alongside some good people whose values I understand, without any discussion of doctrine or faith.
So, is there some way you can have social relationships with church members, in non-doctrinal ways? It is a way to feel connected without having to be orthodox!
SilentDawning wrote:I hear you…First, I’d keep the relationship with your friend intact. I had to apologize to someone for pushing the limits a bit too much recently. I felt better afterwards. Also, recognize that LOOKING for reasons not to believe in Joseph Smith is a way of your friend coping with what she’s found– particularly if she is a black and white thinker. I find myself resisting the urge to “nourish the faithless seed” by looking for reasons to justify not having to believe anymore. Let’s face it, it’s a hard religion to stick with when you are not happy with it given the tithing and cultural demands.
Regarding feeling alone — a tough one. I have friendships with members of the church that help me feel connected. I play in a band with two LDS people, and get to enjoy their character, honesty, and reliabiilty, without the doctrine. I enjoy that. There are a couple people I talk to at church about administration or other issues, but never get into doctrine or problems with my testimony. I also helped out with putting on an activity recently — worked alongside some good people whose values I understand, without any discussion of doctrine or faith.
So, is there some way you can have social relationships with church members, in non-doctrinal ways? It is a way to feel connected without having to be orthodox!
Actually, I think that the reasons I’m struggling are not doctrinal at all, really, but cultural. I really don’t have many issues with the doctrines. I think that’s why I’m so unusual. I will occasionally hear people talk about how they don’t buy into any of the doctrine, and yet want to stay in the Church for social reasons. I’m actually kind of the opposite. I am really more comfortable with non-Mormons than I am with Mormons most of the time. I mean, I have a pretty strong testimony of the basic doctrines of the Church. It’s the people who drive me bonkers.
:wtf: I can’t handle the way they think the General Authorities can do no wrong. I get frustrated over how I feel as if I can’t be honest about my left-leaning politics. If I say anything at all negative about any Church policy, I feel like the entire group I’m with is going to have one big collective stroke. I feel as if I am constantly walking on eggshells. I don’t dare be myself.I had to teach Relief Society a couple of weeks ago. The lesson was on a Conference talk about learning to love others and deal with differences. Being the “flaming liberal” that I am, (at least in the minds of most of the sisters in my ward) I approached the topic by holding up pictures of some hypothetical new neighbors who might be moving in to the area. One was an LDS family of five. Of course, they would be welcomed with open arms. But you should have seen how silent everybody got when I held up pictures of (1) a single, black, Southern Baptist woman and her two children, (2) a Muslim couple, with the woman wearing a hijab, and (3) two well-dressed men (presumably gay) with their son. People were patting themselves on the back because they resisted the urge to put an extended family member down for drinking coffee.
And another thing… I have had two women in my ward tell me basically the same thing: “I’ve never really questioned whether the Church is true or not. I figure if it was good enough for my mother, it’s good enough for me.” I just don’t get people like that! And I feel like I’m surrounded by them. And the only ones who don’t feel that way are leaving the Church entirely. I need a soul mate!
Several of you have mentioned my relationship with my friend. I may not have explained myself very well, so I’ll try again. She is one of the few people in my ward I really feel as if I can relate to, and I will always want to her know that she can be honest with me about her feelings. If she leaves the Church entirely, that’s her choice and I’m not going to hold it against her. It’s just that she seems to be so excited about every negative thing she learns about Joseph Smith. I wish she could understand that even though I have issues with certain Church policies, I am not looking for reasons to leave the Church. If I tell her to keep her findings to herself, she’s going to think I’m judging her and is going to see me as just another one of the sheep. The way I look at it, Joseph Smith may have said and done some things that I don’t feel good about, that I may even believe were wrong. But to me, that doesn’t necessarily equate to “therefore, the Church is false.” Katzpur, you said: Quote:If I were to leave Mormonism, I don’t know where I’d go. I can’t just stop believing in the LDS understanding of the nature of God or of our understanding of the Plan of Salvation. These things make so much sense to me. They are so much more logical than traditional Christian doctrines on of the same topics.
I understand what you’re saying. I grew up in the Methodist church. I knew very few people. Issues like a testimony or being moved by the spirit are foreign concepts. It would be very difficult for me to go back to that environment. I would have to start over from scratch looking for a community I would feel comfortable with. This means I’ve come to terms with the LDS beliefs & teachings.
You also said:
Quote:It’s just that I’m beginning to wonder if there is anybody left in the Church that I can relate to. I don’t feel like I belong. I don’t fit the Mormon mold and yet the last thing I want to do is become an ex-Mormon.
Since I’ve been back to church (about 3yrs), I have found at least 6 people I trust & can say anything to. There are others of us out there in the world.
It may take time & effort to find, but it’s worth it. Don’t give up.
I know it’s not the same thing, but we are here. I hope you find someone with whom you can connect face-to-face.
Quote:I am really more comfortable with non-Mormons than I am with Mormons most of the time.
Most of my good friends nowadays are either non-Mormons, former Mormons (I hesitate to use the word ex-Mormons, since that has too many negative connotations, and my friends are very respectful of one another’s religious beliefs), and a few non-orthodox Mormons much like myself. I am very comfortable with them. Sometimes, I think about the friends I had in high school and junior high, and while I am so, so grateful for having them in my life then, sometimes when we meet up nowadays, I feel sort of self-conscious, since they haven’t really changed religious- and cultural-wise.Quote:The way I look at it, Joseph Smith may have said and done some things that I don’t feel good about, that I may even believe were wrong. But to me, that doesn’t necessarily equate to “therefore, the Church is false.”
Unfortunately with the church culture, things are so black and white, that if one thing is false in one belief system, then everything there should be considered false. It’s not solely inherent to the Mormon culture, of course, but it’s definitely one of the reasons I think that really drive many people into sort of the same situation and mindset of your friend. It’s very easy to say everything is false. It’s much harder to take the path that many of us here have taken — understanding and accepting that many things may be false, but there are many other things that are equally as true.Like Ray said, it might not be the same, but we are definitely here for you. And someone out there, potentially within your ward, is there for you, too. Unfortunately (and fortunately), many of us going down this un-orthodox path can sometimes be a quiet type, so it might just be a bit difficult to find us.
West wrote:Quote:Like Ray said, it might not be the same, but we are definitely here for you. And someone out there, potentially within your ward, is there for you, too. Unfortunately (and fortunately), many of us going down this un-orthodox path can sometimes be a quiet type, so it might just be a bit difficult to find us.
I know you are, and it really does help. True, it’s not the same thing as having someone in the ward you can relate to, but it’s a heck of a lot better than nothing. Every time I teach a Relief Society lesson, I hope that even one person will come up to me and say, “Wow! That’s exactly how I feel!” It just never happens.
Katzpur, I am sorry you are having such a difficult time. I think your biggest problem is that you appear to be a Utah Mormon. Believe me, you have just described my neighbors. That is the cultural part of living in Utah. Outside of Zion, many are much more accepting of diversity. I myself am the “family feminist” and they get to hear my comments in RS. I wish you could pick up and move elsewhere, but I doubt that even enters the realm of possibility. I wish you didn’t feel so alone at church, I know I do at times too. But remember that God loves the R’s and the D’s, He looks on your heart. I just heard Joel Osteen today and he said to find people who celebrate you and don’t hang out with people who tolerate you. I love that. There will be a few you can find that love you for who you are. Don’t waste a minute of your time worrying about the other people. Sometimes I hang onto the first line of the YW theme–We are daughters of a Heavenly Father who loves us, and we love Him. That is the most important thing to remember. Katzpur wrote:Several of you have mentioned my relationship with my friend. I may not have explained myself very well, so I’ll try again. She is one of the few people in my ward I really feel as if I can relate to, and I will always want to her know that she can be honest with me about her feelings. If she leaves the Church entirely, that’s her choice and I’m not going to hold it against her.
It’s just that she seems to be so excited about every negative thing she learns about Joseph Smith.I wish she could understand that even though I have issues with certain Church policies, I am not looking for reasons to leave the Church. If I tell her to keep her findings to herself, she’s going to think I’m judging her and is going to see me as just another one of the sheep. The way I look at it, Joseph Smith may have said and done some things that I don’t feel good about, that I may even believe were wrong. But to me, that doesn’t necessarily equate to “therefore, the Church is false.” Hi, Katzpur – I would give my eye teeth for a real female confidant in my ward. I know that feeling (I wouldn’t call mine excitement) of taking off the blinders and letting myself think freely. But re. Joseph Smith, there’s only a certain amount of information out there and, eventually, she will have all she wants re. the knowable facts. I hope you and she can ride this out until that time because old, true friends are hard to come by. I would like to understand better why you might ask her to keep things to herself. I want to be more open with my friends, but am afraid I’ll screw it up.
I have so missed you. When I first came here you were one of the voices I loved to read. I am glad you have found a place for your heart. I pray for you and your friend. If we lived closer, but I am too many states away, I would gladly be your friend. Thanks for sharing this with us. Just seeing your name on the sidebar made me smile. Katzpur wrote:I feel as if I am constantly walking on eggshells. I don’t dare be myself.
You certainly aren’t alone in feeling that.
Katzpur wrote:I will occasionally hear people talk about how they don’t buy into any of the doctrine, and yet want to stay in the Church for social reasons. I’m actually kind of the opposite.
That might be a group that’s slightly larger than the people that stay but don’t particularly like either.
:crazy: Part of the challenge of making a real life connection with people in church that have similar views is that they may feel the need to be guarded, hold their thoughts close to their vest, just like me. No one pipes up and we both continue to feel alone. I don’t have a strategy to overcome this, I’m just saying.
Last night at mutual, or whatever they are calling it these days, I was surprisingly open with someone about some of the struggles that I have with a few mormon doctrines. It was buried in discussion over much weightier issues but I felt like it was a beginning.
Katzpur wrote:It’s just that she seems to be so excited about every negative thing she learns about Joseph Smith.
I understand that perspective. Perhaps she’s suffered much for the gospel and finding things out about Joseph Smith is allowing her to feel validated about some of her own feelings for the first time in her life. It may be exciting because she has spent a long time beating herself up using the church as the club but now she sees the flaws and has decided to stop the self flagellation. Pure speculation.
It could also be what I’ll call the “new toy syndrome.” After Christmas a kid wants to talk about their favorite toy non-stop. As a parent the fixation over the toy begins to wear out its welcome. We think: Talk about something else already! Sometimes people burn themselves out on talking about certain issues, they move on. Sometimes people seem to stagnate and get stuck on an issue.
I really wish we could have an open discussion on that topic. How to help a friend move past an issue that they appear to be stuck on. Perhaps another thread on that issue to avoid what’s already become a threadjack. I’ve got zero advice to give on that front but I think I’ll go ahead and create the thread anyway.
Often we are blind to our issues that we’re stuck on and it takes someone else to jolt us out of a rut. The problem is when and how. A discussion telling a friend that they have an unhealthy fixation may not do anything if it takes place before the other person is ready… or that person may never become ready unless initially jolted. It’s too complicated for me to figure out.
Number one, I hate seeing a friend waste their life stuck on the same problems. Number two is more selfish, I’ve heard this a thousand, thousand times. It’s all we ever talk about. I don’t want to hear it anymore.
This doesn’t have to be just in cases with issues with the church. It can be anything, e.g.: What your brother said to you that one time when you were over for Thanksgiving two decades ago.
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