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I just feel very good about life today. I think it’s amazing how liberating it is to go through a faith crises (At least, once you come to grips and have some idea of what the future holds). It used to be that as I came across things that were questionable about the church, BoM, JS, or other things, that I would be left feeling unsure and somewhat depressed until I could find an argument that would settle it in my mind concerning the matter. Now, having made the choice to stayLDS despite the warts my experience is 180 degrees different. I don’t yet know all that there is (good and ugly) to know about the church so I still come across new stuff occasionally. Such was the case today. But because I know longer accept the church to be 100% true, or JS to be the near perfect man that has done more save Jesus Christ for mankind that I was taught, it didn’t even phase me. Doesn’t change anything so no emotional melt down needed! I’m truly becoming grateful for having had the courage to rise above blind belief and look at the many colors or spirituality. Also today was tithing settlements. For the first time since paying tithing I have received a financial blessing! Of course, that may have to do with adjusting my belief in the commonly accepted (and not so subtly pushed) belief of 10% gross to be 10% increase…
😈 Best of all, after a thoughtful discussion with my TBM wife, borrowing greatly from info I gleaned on previous posts here about tithing, she agreed!Thanks all for being here. I learn so much from all of you as I am able to see things differently.
I enjoyed reading your post Bill
Thanks for sharing that with us, eman. It’s good to read about the good times and not just the struggles. Hi Eman, I can relate – sometimes anyway.
I have my days.
There isn’t much that could really upset me about the church.
I’ve heard about everything – and then some.
I figure that my personal experience with going to our ward – is superficial and not perfect, but it’s good overall.
To me, at least at this time in my life – I see more benefits from being active in the church, than not.
And I agree about the tithing thing and luckily my DH is supportive, even if somewhat grudgingly.
Lately, I’ve come to see more personally, how everything I think is subjectively limited in awareness.
Bascially, I can’t help but fool myself.
I can fool myself in destructive ways, or productive ways (like the placebo effect).
I’ve also realized how everything I think or invest in, including religious belief – is based on symbolism – even these letters I’m typing.
The church offers rich symbolism – that most take literally to one limited interpretation – yet that doesn’t take away the value of spiritual symbols.
Featherina wrote:
And I agree about the tithing thing and luckily my DH is supportive, even if somewhat grudgingly.
2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
Well, if he’s giving grudgingly, you might as well tell him not to give at all…
😈 In all seriousness I feel for you. That’s the hardest part for me: how my new beliefs would change my actions but the DW doesn’t always (read: almost never) agrees. Oh the irony of life! Even after I wrote this post yesterday some how my new “color” laced faith came up in a conversation between DW. It then became somewhat heated. I very much wish I never had shared my faith crisis with her but what’s done is done. Now she just looks at me with those accusing eyes that it will be my fault that we’re not together when we die. In other words, she believes I’m condemned to hell, not because of anything I’ve done, but only because (and this is pretty much the extent of her understanding with new faith) I don’t believe the church is the
one and only true church!If I could just help her be more patient, loving and non judgmental it would go along way towards improving our relationship. If I could help her understand that faith in Christ is what saves (and yes, I have faith as defined by hope) maybe all would be well. Anyways, I rant. Hi Eman, That’s what we’re here for – to share what sometimes is hard to share in other places.
It’s really tough when your spouse isn’t on the same page – especially when the page you based a big part of your marriage is torn in half.
Marriage is tough already. But I think it’s really important to do whatever possible to keep the marriage intact when kids are involved.
Sorry I wasn’t clear about how I could relate with you about tithing.
Actually, my DH agreed to only give fast offerings to the church and to give ALL (yes ALL) of our tithes (based on increase) to those in need.
🙂 This is what he has kindof done grudgingly – because he told the bishop that he wasn’t giving tithes to the church because of me.
Luckily, I have a good bishop who doesn’t seem to hold it against me, but I just didn’t like how my DH blamed me, as if we’re doing something wrong by sharing with the poor and it’s all my fault. Deut 14:28-29 says that at least a large portion of tithes are for the poor. Jesus taught to help those in need… as we help others we help God/Christ. And money is just one way of helping. Isn’t it funny how caught up in money we’ve gotten – in the church?
I understand there are costs in maintaining and building churches – yet I also understand that generally employees don’t pay to work. And also, generally, I think God is about truth and light and being open and honest in dealing with their fellowman, including how sacred tithing funds are spent. Maybe eventually, I’ll pay a tithing to the church – if I stop having so many callings and there comes to be more financial transparency and integrity in the church, but for now, I’m doing what I feel good about.
Quote:If I could just help her be more patient, loving and non judgmental it would go along way towards improving our relationship.
Can you also say the same about how you now view her? Can you see that, maybe, the new issues in your relationship aren’t all her fault – that you caused the change, not her – that you being the change agent puts even more responsibility on you to be “more patient, loving and non-judgmental” as she struggles to adjust to changes she didn’t cause?
I don’t attach ANY degree of guilt to those questions, so I hope you don’t translate them that way. It’s just something I think you need to consider very openly and as honestly as you can.
Old-Timer wrote:
Can you also say the same about how you now view her? Can you see that, maybe, the new issues in your relationship aren’t all her fault – that you caused the change, not her – that you being the change agent puts even more responsibility on you to be “more patient, loving and non-judgmental” as she struggles to adjust to changes she didn’t cause?
Not all her fault!?
:wtf: Ridiculous! Of course it’s all her fault! If she’d just submit to her husband as he submits to the Lord…START_RANT
In all seriousness, I can only imagine what it’s like. But truly understanding? No. Can’t do it. Pragmatic as I am I would have responded much different if the situation was reversed. As i said, I regret much of what I said during my “turning point.” I can’t, however, do anything about this. All I can do is go forward. It’s just hard because you think you fall in love with a person for who they are, not what they believe. But evident by DW’s reaction on multiple occasions, I really think she’s weighing whether it makes sense to stay married. To me this is just too much! We have had NO other problems besides this one [major problems…yes we fight on occasion, but eventually she realizes I’m right and all is well
/END_RANT
DW feels that if the LDS church were not “true,” then she would have no hope of being with our deceased child in the hereafter. Sometimes she frames her feelings in ways that are not very understanding or accepting of my feelings. (i.e. hoping for my repentance Would you rather have the person you love or your own sense of identity? Even if you might choose the person you love, framing it this way makes it more understandable how some may react differently. She is probably not even choosing this but is rather having a knee-jerk reaction. I too hope that over time, you both are able to be “more patient, loving and non-judgmental” of each other.
eman, I don’t think it’s too much for you to ask, and I didn’t mean to say it was.All I meant is that I wonder if you could read the exact phrase I quoted (and a few in your last comment) and apply it to yourself as coming from her. It’s an interesting, enlightening practice – and it has opened my eyes a lot over the years to other people, not just my wife. For example, what someone believes is intimately wrapped up in who they are – and, even more so, how they are perceived by others. Specific to this situation, she married you with expectations of present and future – and your faith crisis has rocked those expectations to the core, I’m sure. I believe strongly that becoming one, regardless of temple ordinances, is what sealing means –
but my belief doesn’t mean squat to someone else who doesn’t see it that way. If one person has had her security and “faith” shattered, it’s completely natural for her to react with fear and concern – and to wonder what she did to make someone “lose faith in us” or “not care enough to try to guarantee we will be together forever”, for example. I don’t know your wife, but I’ve seen enough situations where it was the person who left the Church who initiated and caused bitterness, separation and even divorce to understand a little of what she might be feeling – the fear and self-doubt that might be simmering within her. I’m not saying that such a reaction is “right”, but I am saying it is totally natural and understandable. Recognizing that alone is important.
One of my favorite scriptures is the following:
Quote:“We love Him, because he first loved us.”
I believe strongly that it is the responsibility primarily of the one who causes any change in any relationship to be the one who acts in the place of “Him” in that verse – that we need to be the understanding one as we hope for understanding from the other(s). We have to be the example to them of what we want from them, and, most importantly, we have to be willing to be charitable in that process – with “long-suffering” being a key component of that charity.
Ok, at risk of sounding like a broken record, will you send your wife to the website Faces East? It seriously changed our marriage for the better. If your wife is not interested, you should still go there and read with an open heart… eman, let me add my 2cents. I understand where you are coming from. I opened up to my wife just a little and she told me she felt like her world was coming apart. I tried to explain to her that going through a faith crisis, your world, as you have known it is falling to pieces. I have had many hard things happen in my life including a death of a child and a divorce and this faith crisis that I am having has been just as trying as anything I have experienced. I have grown from the other things and I can see that I am also growing from this. My wife is a teacher and her job is very stressful so I told her this summer after our initial talk and after I had her watch “Why people leave the Mormon church” by John Dehlin, that for now I was trying to work through my issues with the church and as far has she is concerned we would put in on the back burner. I have kept my calling on the HC, but modified how I handle my assignments, and I have very slowly opened up to her about some things. Very baby steps and for now it is working out pretty good. She is more of a cafeteria Mormon than she thinks she is and I am learning that most members are. I don’t want her to go through the pain and anguish that I have been passing through and I really am trying to find my own balance. I like going to church and always have, even when sometimes it’s very frustrating. I am hoping I can make the church work for me but I know that it has to be on my terms. Once the genie is out of the bottle, I don’t think I can put it back. Thankful wrote:Ok, at risk of sounding like a broken record, will you send your wife to the website Faces East? It seriously changed our marriage for the better. If your wife is not interested, you should still go there and read with an open heart…
I don’t know…I’m not sure it would be best for my wife. She basically wants to pretend everything is normal…except when something comes up in conversation that shows it isn’t. Also I’m afraid if I sent her there where it seems like many people talk about their spouses actually LEAVING the church that she would get the wrong idea and be even more worried about me leaving (this seems to be her worst fear, that someday I will leave the church and that now I’m just prolonging it). I appreciate the link though as maybe things will change and I’ll recommend it to her. Thank you.Roy wrote:DW feels that if the LDS church were not “true,” then she would have no hope of being with our deceased child in the hereafter. Sometimes she frames her feelings in ways that are not very understanding or accepting of my feelings. (i.e. hoping for my repentance
Would you rather have the person you love or your own sense of identity? Even if you might choose the person you love, framing it this way makes it more understandable how some may react differently. She is probably not even choosing this but is rather having a knee-jerk reaction. I too hope that over time, you both are able to be “more patient, loving and non-judgmental” of each other.
Oh…sorry Ray. I forgot to mention that of course I agreed with you. Sorry for the rant. I realize that sometimes in writing it’s so hard to convey real feelings which is hard as I’m naturally a very light spoken person (read: sarcastic). I do accept responsibility (Though secretly I blame God for not coming down and talking with us. He could just straighten the whole thing out for us…
:angel: ). I do forget though that it took me many moons to come to peace with my decision. That’s why I need people like you to set me straight. Thanks!In my marriage my wife and I have reached a bit of a truce. She’s a TBM and I usually just act like one. She and my children know my struggles and that I have doubts about the eternal nature of life, etc. That being said, if there is a God – and I can sincerely say that I really really hope there is – that He would judge me as much (or more) on my actions than on my beliefs. To me faith seems to imply action while knowledge or belief don’t imply action. I think that’s the basis of our truce: my wife says “I know” and I say “I have faith in” or “I hope that”… Not knowing all the details of your marriage, it seems that if you are a good person and you both love each other and act that way, then you still have a basis for a good marriage. It may be rocky at first but hang in there.
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