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I was called in to talk to the my branch president… I haven’t talk to him for awhile, last time before I talk about my “faith crisis”. Since then I struggle a lot but I can’t confidential say the church is true. I waffle a lot but I figure i should stick to my gun when I talk to him. I told him that I didn’t believe anymore but I would like to stay in church and make it work. I told him I finally found some peace in where I’m at that I haven’t found for awhile.
He was very understanding and resistant at all. He said he was very happy that I found some peace in my life and he knew I’ve been struggling for awhile. We talk about what this mean. I still get to keep my calling. I still get to hometeach (hooray?). I still can pray just because avoiding awkwardness. I don’t need to give talks anymore. I was pretty happy with that… until….
I brought up the temple. I told him how much I really want to marry a lds girl because of the same values and interest with the church. I was willing to support her spiritually (ie temple marriage). He told me that I can’t go to the temple and get my endowments and temple is for people who believe because of the sacred convenient that you take. You have to be committed 100%.
My heart drop. My dreams of making he church work with another spouse broke to a hundred pieces. I knew it was coming but it still hurt.
I know he is right. It just hurt. A lot. I drove him crying. I decided to don’t do anything rash. I wanted to drive back and take it back and tell him I believed. Just kidding! I wanted to lie just so I can be part of something I want so badly. I was hoping god right there would give me the spiritual confirmation I wanted and reward me for my loyalty. Nothing.
But as I got home I realize that I can’t do it and I shouldn’t do it. I remember a quote from Mark Manson (dating, men’s mental health guy): (this apply to this jobs, relationships, friendship, etc) Rejection exists for a reason – it’s a means to keep people who are not good for each other apart.
So anyways, I’m still devastated but I understand why. Next couple days is going to be hard.
Maybe tonight god will appear to me and say the church is true. God I want that to happen SO badly.
I am not sending any advice tonight, just hugs. Please know you are still very valuable to God. mom3 wrote:I am not sending any advice tonight, just hugs. Please know you are still very valuable to God.
Thank you. No advice needed (but very much welcome and wanted). I just need to be heard and be understood.
One of the nicest things about this site is the opportunity we have do share our feelings. Perhaps you would benefit from reading through the threads about the temple recommend questions. Here’s a particularly good one (with links to each question): http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6117 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6117 This is precisely why I don’t like confiding in priesthood leaders. They are judge, jury and executioner. Plus, they are supposed to be your support structure/advocate. It’s an unholy alliance (pun intended). If you go to them about sin, or unbelief, they give you counsel, but as you found, they also restrict your privileges. Should the time come that an angel appears to someone who has indicated their lack of belief, the Bishop will then require that person to jump through a lot of hoops to get access to privleges lost due to the person confiding their darkest and deepest to the Bishop. Naturally, it sounds like you agree that it’s probably not a good idea to go to the temple and make all those commitments when you don’t believe — but we are all non-believers to some extent. And one should approach the temple with hope, not despair based on statements from priesthood leaders!
You will recover from this. As a young adult, if you were like me, you are somewhat “transient” and as jobs and circumstances change, you can move into a different Ward (potentially, don’t know your stake very well). You get a new Bishop, or new leader who gets to know you — after a while you can go into the leader and they won’t know about your doubts. Provided a person’s membership record is not annotated, it’s like a clean slate. One thing I like about the geographical boundary rule. As long as you move out of the stake, you often get a different leader, and people who know nothing about you. It’s great for transformations! further, Bishops don’t serve forever. So, depending on how far into his term this bishop is, you may get a new one at some point. As you work on your testimony, or your interpretation of what constitutes a testimony, you may eventually go in and reverse the situation with statements of what you do believe.
You will get past this. I wouldn’t say your hopes for marrying an LDS girl are shot. I would maintain a good amount of hope. And there are a lot of people with differing shades of belief to marry…
Also, I thought your Bishop sounded like he was saying all the right things — right up until the temple part. At that point, he should’ve expressed his own desire for you to go to the temple. Supported you in setting that goal. Then he might’ve commented on your testimony challenges and encouraged you to be able to answer the questions with honesty and sufficient belief that you would be able to keep the covenants over the long-term. something like that. Not a “no — it’s for people who believe 100% and that’s not YOU”. I know he probably wasn’t that harsh, but hat was the message you came away with. He could’ve done better on that.
Funny how much training these guys get in PROCEDURE. But so little on how to counsel people. They are not counselors. Someone on here indicated an LDS Counselor said bad counseling from priesthood leaders and bad mission experiences is part of what keeps them employed
Your story reminded me of something: My brother was a RM, temple married dude who then divorced. His mission experience had been less than wonderful. Ditto for temple marriage. (No sex and she didn’t want children).
He became inactive. Then completely anti-God. He chased pleasure for a few years in all her forms. Things got fairly wild and crazy. He eventually found his local bishop, made an appointment, and went in the talk to him.
After confessing all his sins, telling the bishop exactly what he had done in his past. The bishop looked at my brother and said, ” I don’t think you can get back from where you are.”
My brother called me after that interview. He set some new records on the profanity scale. What bishop tells someone that forgiveness is not an available option?
Brother went on the talk to the SP. SP was a convert with a little more life experience. He was able to give my brother a plan.
Point of this story: We have people in positions of authority without much life experience. They say things that are not helpful. Consider the source and move on.
amateurparent wrote:Point of this story: We have people in positions of authority without much life experience. They say things that are not helpful. Consider the source and move on.
Exactly. Also, one thing Hawkgrrl mentioned when I was drawing analogies between bad bosses and bad leaders. You have to “minimize their impact on you”. One book I swear by, called “Winning with the Boss from H-E- _ _” gives five principles. the first two are to Fly Under the Radar and the second is to Ignore.
Good advice — minimize their impact by flying under the radar and ignoring their silly comments. You have a bright future in or out of the church, and don’t let one man, untrained, and unqualified to counsel others, “inspire” you to give up hope.
I agree with AP. That’s what I really like about my bishop – he’s a convert, has several inactive children (some RMs), his wife works most Sundays, he went through a period of unemployment when his children were young, etc. He’s a pretty understanding guy. Nevertheless, I still say we should avoid expressing our doubts etc., to priesthood leaders. No good comes of it – and sometimes the bad is what you are experiencing mczee.
I think it is important to remember what talking to a priesthood leader is, and what it doesn’t need to be but we often do go to them for. mczee wrote:He told me that I can’t go to the temple and get my endowments and temple is for people who believe because of the sacred convenient that you take. You have to be committed 100%.
I can understand a bishop saying this. And there is wisdom to making sure someone understands taking a girl to be sealed in the temple is not to be taken lightly. It sets up expectations on the marriage.
Having said all that, there are temple recommend questions. You can study those and ask yourself if you feel you can pass those questions with a clear conscience. If you can, then all opinions like “100% committed” are just how others think or frame it. Bottom line, it is up to the couple and their relationship, and if the questions can be answered.
There is a lot of room for variation, so nothing is for sure. I can see a nice couple with liberal views on church wanting a temple marriage even if they believe in unorthodox ways, as long as they have both talked about it and how they felt and there are no surprises or hidden feelings about it all, it is fine.
The temple is about promises. And life is about working towards things we hope for. You don’t have to have all the answers now, and you don’t need to be validated by a bishop…you just need him to give you a recommend, which is up to him and a member of the SP.
If you ask a lot of questions to bishops, you need to be ready for a wide range of answers. But study those out to see what feels right to you. What the bishop thinks in one moment is not written on tablets of stone. It is just his best attempt at helping you. I truly believe he is trying to help you, in his imperfect ways. In this case, it was probably good for you to hear that the temple should be taken seriously.
Your reaction and how you care about that information is also very telling.
mczee wrote:I wanted to drive back and take it back and tell him I believed. Just kidding! I wanted to lie just so I can be part of something I want so badly. I was hoping god right there would give me the spiritual confirmation I wanted and reward me for my loyalty. Nothing.
That is something that over time you can work to understand why you care and what you value. I applaud you for still wanting to believe. You may find this GC talk of interest to you in your studies:
Lord, I Believe; Help Thou Mine UnbeliefIf you value taking a nice girl to the temple some day…prepare yourself for that. There are ways to have doubts about teachings and concepts while still committing to trying (whatever that means to you), which leaves the door open for some time in the future to be able to choose to go to the temple or not. You may find a nice girl, find that activity in the church with her makes you happy, and you want to commit, even if you have doubts you are working through and talking with your girl about.
All things are a process. Don’t make it black and white. Don’t ask bishops to give permission for your personal journey. But understand the laborer in the vineyard does need to do some labor to be worthy of his hire. Find out what that means to you. There are lots and lots of answers and different ways to do things honestly and achieve what you feel is right in your heart.
Don’t give up. You’re a good soul.
Thanks guys. You’re all amazing. I think the one of my problems is that I decided to take a strong stance instead of my normal waffling status. I should of just said “i don’t know if the church is true” vs “the church isn’t true”. I think the former is more true than the latter…. but for some reason I figure I would take the strong stance.
Maybe I’m just freaking out since I took it so hard.
I’ve even said “I don’t know” to him before and he still push me to go to the temple.
At any rate I just need to chill a little. I’m just going to let things sit for a little bit. Let things settle emotionally before I take my next step.
One of things I tell myself is that life is more than my faith crisis and being Mormon. Life is my career, my relationships, my family, my friends, my hobbies, my goals, my heath and million other things. I’m more than this small event in my life.
mczee wrote:One of things I tell myself is that life is more than my faith crisis and being Mormon. Life is my career, my relationships, my family, my friends, my hobbies, my goals, my heath and million other things. I’m more than this small event in my life.
Wow…very profound. I needed to hear that today. Thanks for sharing.
Ha ha! Thanks! That thought alone has really shifted my paradigm. When I first came here I was in “freak out” mode. Then that thought came across my head and it really put everything on it’s head for the better. Ya, sure I’m back to freaking out now, but that’s ok. I’m human. I need to let myself feel sad and be ok with it. We are all emotional roller coasters.
Diversifying your identity is VERY important. Like last night I decided to go to the gym and focus on getting back to weight lifting again. Even if I’m still freaking out It helped calm me a lot. (life is about weight lifting guys!!!)
In many areas YSA bishops or student ward bishops are only called for 3 years, so it may not take as long for the bishop to be replaced. It’s also possible you caught him on a bad night and that in a few months if you think you can answer the temple recommend questions (suggestion: read the threads that Dark Jedi shared) then try again with more nuanced answers.
mczee wrote:I think the one of my problems is that I decided to take a strong stance instead of my normal waffling status. I should of just said “i don’t know if the church is true” vs “the church isn’t true”. I think the former is more true than the latter…. but for some reason I figure I would take the strong stance.
I have had be to very careful in talking with my priesthood leaders and still keep my privileges (in my case I do not have a TR but wish to baptize my children). I do not pay tithing. I have had to frame my lack of tithing as coming from a place where I struggle to have faith in God’s promised blessings. The premise is that I owe God this money and am defrauding Him. It paints me as something akin to a deadbeat dad and is slightly humiliating.
However, to correct this assumption IMO would be worse. I would much rather be a faith waffling backslider being gently chided than become a hardened recalcitrant and obstinate apostate in the mind of my bishop.
Ultimately, my bishop plays such a tiny role in my life. I want to have the bonding experience of baptizing my children (something I have aspired to since childhood). I am willing to eat a little humble pie in order to reach my goal. My bishop may not see me as a fully upstanding man but I get to be a hero to my kids. I will cherish that moment.
:thumbup: Thanks again everybody. I feel much better day but still really bummed about the experience. Some quick comments on what a lot of you said:1. For the future, I will be VERY careful what I say to a priesthood authority. I think for the most part my branch president said what needed to be said but I don’t think timing was perfect for me. I just got over a huge emotional/spiritual hump and I wasn’t ready for this one. I wasn’t ready for any bold claims like I thought I was.
2. I honestly think somebody (like myself) can still practice faith and not be believing AND be a good standing member. I was willing to do a lot of LDS things (temple recommend questions?I have no problem with any of those!) Not all of us are equip to have a testimony but a lot of us can practice being Mormon (if it’s healthy). If there is a loving god in heaven, I can’t see how he can punish for his child with a disbelief but also have a practicing faith and obedience.
3. Before I go on my next step I’m going to report here. I should of did that before the branch president. I might of save myself a lot of grief and heartache.
4. I need to continue to have a life. This isn’t everything. Continue with work, hobbies, health, relationships, dating (with lds and non lds), etc. I can’t let this limit myself.
As for the future
I’m considering the following options(I need to let things sit before I do any of these): 1. Appeal to the stake president (or my branch president again). Tell him my perspective how I can disbelief but have faith in the same time.
2. Leave the church entirely for a couple of months. Feel everything out and see if feel better or see how the other side isn’t at all that bad. The church has cause so much grief that maybe it might be more healthy to leave. Just not be Mormon for awhile. (but still have some standards)
3. Request to leave YSA (I’m already over age by 8 months) and try again with a new bishop.
4. Continue my disbelief and never temple recommend status (I don’t know how I can handle that).
Again, I probably won’t do any of these for a couple of months. Right now I’m still reeling from the shock. I should’t make any decisions at this state.
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