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Hi all, Wow. I don’t know if I should apologize or laugh at the subject line I’ve given this post. After lurking for a while, I figure this is one of the safer places to explore my concerns/frustrations and get open minded feedback. Here goes:
I’m a convert to the church. I converted three years ago. My conversion was swift – and I now know that is typical. I had many questions regarding theology/apologetics, but I could never get a clear answer. I asked specific questions about the Temple before I joined, such as, what does it take to be “worthy” to enter the Temple and is there anything that would impact my worthiness. I was told “milk before meat.” I figured I was a smart person and I’d eventually figure it out. In the meantime, I was told to “have faith.” Prior to my baptism, my (ex) husband, who is agnostic, had to provide a letter of consent for me to join. To my surprise, he provided the letter for baptism and eventually to attend the Temple.
Right after I joined, I was given a calling. When I asked what the description was, the Bishop couldn’t give me an answer. When I further questioned my skillset/training to carry it out, he left me with the impression that “no” isn’t an answer when a calling is extended. He also could not give me an estimated amount of time I would need to devote weekly to this calling. That was important to know as I was working long hours full time and also going to school. Nevertheless, I was told to have faith. So I said I would try. After that, two brethren from the church came over to meet with my (ex) husband. They asked him if he would “sustain” me in my new calling. He said yes, not knowing what the church’s definition of “sustaining” means – neither did I.
Soon, there were additional meetings associated with my calling – after the block of meetings at church. Sometimes these meetings would last for 1 1/2 to 2 hours – leaving my then husband very (understandably) frustrated – and me feeling torn. Then I had VT/HT in my home – and had to reciprocate the same – further causing frustration. I tried to do my best, but my best wasn’t met with accolades from those in the church. Pretty soon, dinner invitations stopped – I found I wasn’t being invited to members’ homes as I had been before my baptism. It took a while, but I finally found out that I had been “love bombed” – and now these “friends” had simply moved on to the next “project.”
However, I kept going, I kept the faith. And I showed my faith in the realm of tithing. From the time I joined, I faithfully paid my tithes – a full amount. Eventually I was granted access into the Temple. I had a million questions! Imagine my surprise when I asked some very elevated brethren in the church for an explanation of what I’d seen and heard – only to hear – “I don’t know the answers to those questions. I don’t know what it means.” Again, I was told to have faith. Now, I understand the concept of “Mystery” – but this wasn’t it.
Fast forward two years later. My calling was changed, I had several deaths in my family – while being expected to keep up with my callings – health problems and a very nasty divorce (my husband walked out on me). I burned out. I didn’t attend Sacrament meeting often, because I was just exhausted and needed sleep. No one from church checked in with me, no VT… but I still tried to do what I could. The financial struggle from the divorce was devastating. I continued to pay my tithes – for a while. Then it got so bad I didn’t pay my tithe, then missed another, then another… Just when things began looking up, another family member was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I was right after I found out about this family member when I was asked to go to a meeting at the church. I went in and just started crying and couldn’t stop. I received a blessing and was told to talk to the Bishop about the financial difficulties and the multiple losses in my family.
So, I did. I told him everything… and said, “And I don’t remember how long it’s been since I’ve paid my tithes.” I also told him how dire my financial affairs were – that if I did pay my tithe, I wouldn’t have enough money for my utility bills and car payment. The Bishop, being a very kind but exacting man said, “Sister, tithing is an act of faith. If you pay your tithes, you will be blessed. Now, the church has very strict rules about worthiness and attending the Temple. One of those is being a full tithe payer. Since you are not, I will need you to turn in your Temple recommend. If you pay your tithes, the church will help you with your bills, and you can build up a cushion.”
The church did help me with my bills – and I paid my tithes. However, because my tithes were equal to my car payment, I broke even. But as I think about that meeting with the Bishop, I went in there – as humiliating as it was – to tell him about financial difficulties and what a rough year it had been. Instead, I was punished for it. I went in looking for mercy but instead was knocked down – then appeased with financial assistance.
It’s one thing to have financial means and not pay one’s tithes – as opposed to a newly single woman living on a shoestring and giving up many necessary things such as medication – and still be expected to pay a full tithe to remain in good standing. If it were’t being obligated for the financial help I’ve been given, I would have walked out the night my recommend was stripped from me.
JazzyLou
Thanks for sharing JL. I know it is sometimes difficult to share inner personal feelings and experiences as you have, and the anonymity here only partly makes it easier. I have been a member much longer than you have, but I have experienced some similar things and I have definitely felt kicked when I was down (by the church and/or bishop) and that is a big part of my own faith crisis. In the 10 years that I have not been to church, I also found out who my friends in the ward are and aren’t – there are many more who aren’t and I find is sad they can be so fake. I have a HT who came 3 times last year, my wife’s VT never comes – and she’s active. The only real contacts I’ve had with the church the past couple of years has been “Rescue” attempts, misguided fools. Please, a real friend would go much farther than an interview by someone carrying out an assignment, I can’t fathom how anyone really believes that works.
Anyway, you will find there are others here who understand as well. All I can say is that the bishop is not the church and he is not the gospel, and likewise members are not, either. The thing is, now you need to come to your own conclusions about what the gospel and church really are. Welcome to the forum, I hope we can help you and I hope you can help someone here.
I’ve said for a long time that both the majesty and tragedy of the LDS Church is the local leadership and membership. When it works, Heaven sings with joy; when it doesn’t, Heaven weeps with sorrow. I’m sorry you had to experience such dysfunction. People here will understand. Take your time, and build your own unique faith. It’s not easy, but it’s a good objective. We’re here for you as you do so.
Sorry to hear how this went. I also know how it feels to see the love bombs stop…deep, deep, good, long-lasting relationships are hard to come by in any context. I’m sorry about what I read, but I understand it. I have my own versions of the broad themes in it. Keep posting and listening to others, and develop your own philosophy about how to StayLDS…people will listen and respond — it’s like making entries into a talking journal.
SD
I get it. Sorry it works out this way sometimes.
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Hi Jazzy Lou. I’m Tom, and I am a convert, too, so I understand a lot of what you’re talking about. I won’t try to sugarcoat it or try to defend the people who kicked you, but there are some things that are hard for a convert to perceive because of lack of perspective (not having any friends or family to explain). For example, there are questions that many members of the Church don’t know the real answer to. If you went around asking what’s the difference between the baptismal covenant and the Temple covenant, a lot of lifelong members would be hard-pressed to give a conceptual answer that isn’t legalistic. Same with worthiness for the Temple–other than the interview questions, what’s really at issue? Basically, it’s maturity, basic knowledge, and a lifestyle conducive to spiritual progression. The first is about age, the second is implied if you’ve been going to Gospel Essentials class, the third is known both from an interview as well as what else is obvious about you. But enough of that–I know that’s not really what’s getting at you.
The truth is there are actually some lifelong members of the Church who are indifferent or hostile to converts. I will say definitely that there are three groups of people I have always found to be very kind to converts–the really gung-ho conservative members who are fanatics (because to them converts “prove” the truth of the Church); and liberal dissenters because to them converts bring in much-needed relief from the conformity of the Church, even if they have a literal take on LDS doctrine which is typical of converts. Also, a third group–quirky members who just don’t fit into the LDS mold. The remainder are a lot of lukewarm Latter-Day Saints who are not on fire with the Gospel nor are they people who rock the boat. These people often don’t know how to relate to the experiences of converts (especially if they didn’t serve a mission) and they often relate to the Church purely on a cynical social level which may involve things like cliquishness, gossip, etc.
Bishops are often misunderstood by converts who expect a higher degree of spiritual enlightenment than is common. What converts expect of bishops is more often found in stake presidents and mission presidents–that kind of person who is a LDS paragon of love, understanding, charity– and that is by design in the selection criteria for higher leaders. Some people may disagree with my generalizations here but I think that it is still a good guide to understanding how the Church works and why converts so often have disappointing experiences with bishops.
Another thing about bishops is that the Church is very strict about temple recommends, and bishops don’t have leeway on this. I have been given callings such as teaching the youth even when not paying tithing, but that’s common. Unfortunately, the Church does not distinguish between reasons for not being able to pay tithing–it is an absolute requirement, as far as I know. Say you started a business and it wasn’t working out (a typical scenario); that is not an acceptable reason. The spiritual underpinning for tithing is that in order to progress to a certain level of enlightenment, one does have to be able to transcend the natural urge to want total security.
I think that you’ve got to give the LDS experience more time before it starts to pay off. I know a woman who told me that for the first five years after she got baptized it was like she went to hell. Only her testimony kept her in the Church. My experience and timeline was similar.
When you seek counseling on things, never hesitate to seek out a member of the stake presidency (doesn’t have to be the SP, his counselors will do). Those men are often more mature and spiritual than the average bishop, and my experience with stake presidencies have been almost always positive. One nice thing about the Church is that its leaders especially at stake level and above are people who really do genuinely love others in a way that is not common in society.
Welcome Jazzy! 
I too can empathize with some of what you have written. (my TR was confiscated for non-payment of tithes when I was greiving the loss of a child and had a sense of betrayal that the promised tithing blessings didn’t materialize. I was the ward mission leader at the time. I haven’t had a TR since.)
I am very sorry for your poor experiences. Everyone is such a mixed bag in what they bring to the table. I personally believe that the LDS church is not a good church for people to join that have struggles, hardships, or addictions in their life. If you can give the required resourses of time and money and otherwise have a “pull yourself up by your bopotstraps” mentality then you may do very well. But if you have little to no resourses and are struggling with getting the short end of the stick in life, I believe the LDS church experience will make it worse about as often as making it better.
Part of the reason I have given for staying is to help others that might not fit in 100%. I have already paid all the barriers to entry. I grew up in the church, have a more thourough understanding of all things Mormon than most, served a mission, married in the temple, etc. etc. I am married to an RM and we have young children – just the ideal LDS demographic. I figure if I can’t navigate church membership then what hope do new converts have.
One new convert friend of mine said that he likes hanging out with us because of all of the Mormons he has met, we seem to be the most normal. I took it as a compliment.
There is more than one right way to be a Mormon!
Interestingly, there is a disconnect between the Gospel message that resonates so deeply for so many who need it so much and, therefore, tend to join the Church, and the culture that has developed in too many wards. It’s not that the Church is hard on the poor and suffering, but that local culture can be very hard on the poor and suffering. Otoh, there are lots of wards and branches that are wonderful for the poor and suffering. Speaking very broadly, local leadership tends to make all the difference.
Curtis wrote:Interestingly, there is a disconnect between the Gospel message that resonates so deeply for so many who need it so much and, therefore, tend to join the Church, and the culture that has developed in too many wards. It’s not that the Church is hard on the poor and suffering, but that local culture can be very hard on the poor and suffering. Otoh, there are lots of wards and branches that are wonderful for the poor and suffering.
Speaking very broadly, local leadership tends to make all the difference.
I agree, but will add that geography, including human geography, can also play a role. Our wards in rural upstate NY tend to be geographically large and without clusters of members – there are a two or three member families, maybe, in each small town and maybe a few more in larger towns while the rest live in the country. It can be logistically difficult to take care of all the needs of the most needy.
Amen, DJ. Well said. Jazzylou, welcome to our StayLDS ward. I hope you find peace with your experiences. This “ward” has so helpful while going through my faith transition. I am so sorry to hear of your heartache you felt when the people you thought loved you only wanted you to join the church. That must be really painful, especially regarding tithing. It is hard to know the true motives of people period, it is hard for us to know our OWN motives most of the time. I have to admit that I have been those people that seemed to only want someone to join the church, but I truly did care about those that I was serving, it took me years to realize that I really disliked being “assigned” to people because it felt so forced at times. Do you know what is funny though, I don’t want people to find out about my FT because I want to avoid being the recipient of the love bombing. I hated doing it and I hate that people would even feel “sorry” for me for a second and feel that I need to be loved more to find the truth. I even shudder at the thought of my name being brought up as a focus family in ward council. Maybe this worry will pass in time, but this is where I am today.
Anyway, I hope you will feel welcomed here. Support is a powerful tool.
DarkJedi wrote:Curtis wrote:Interestingly, there is a disconnect between the Gospel message that resonates so deeply for so many who need it so much and, therefore, tend to join the Church, and the culture that has developed in too many wards. It’s not that the Church is hard on the poor and suffering, but that local culture can be very hard on the poor and suffering. Otoh, there are lots of wards and branches that are wonderful for the poor and suffering.
Speaking very broadly, local leadership tends to make all the difference.
I agree, but will add that geography, including human geography, can also play a role. Our wards in rural upstate NY tend to be geographically large and without clusters of members – there are a two or three member families, maybe, in each small town and maybe a few more in larger towns while the rest live in the country. It can be logistically difficult to take care of all the needs of the most needy.
I also agree – even a close genuine friendship with one person can make a huge difference. OTOH, I see institutional emphasis on covenant keeping, agency, and self improvement to be widespread. Sometimes these things are emphasised to the detriment or near exclusion of forgiveness, mercy, and grace.
In saying these things I don’t mean to say that the gospel of the LDS church doesn’t “work.” I see the gospel of the LDS church to be such a tiny sliver or flavor of a much larger and more expansive gospel that it doesn’t bother me if it doesn’t meat everyone’s needs.
Hi, JazzyLou – I’m glad you’re here and what a harrowing story. I’m sorry, and hope we can help you get your bearings. Thanks for the responses. Here is what bothers me as well: 1. No one told me before I was baptized that being a full tithe payer was a stipulation to entering the Temple.
2. No one told me before I was baptized that my Temple recommend would be taken away from me if I failed to pay my tithes.
3. No one told me about callings and how it’s nearly impossible to turn them down when they are taking up nearly all free time after working all day.
4. There are several basic doctrinal issues that were misrepresented during the short time of my investigation. What I find is that these issues are in direct conflict with what I believe.
And – interestingly enough – my life was in order when I joined. However, 3.5 years and several major life events later, and I find it is true – the LDS church is not the place for a person whose life has gotten “the short end of the stick.” I do find I’m treated differently since my divorce (i.e. read – much, much less $$). Maybe that’s why the church is so successful – maybe the converts that “make it” are the ones that are already successful.
JL
Here is my input, point-by-point, just to add some perspective: Quote:1. No one told me before I was baptized that being a full tithe payer was a stipulation to entering the Temple.
That is an explicit part of the missionary discussions. If it wasn’t taught, that responsibility is on the missionaries. Since it should have been covered by the missionaries, the members probably assumed they taught it. Seriously, it probably never crossed their minds that you hadn’t been taught that.
Quote:2. No one told me before I was baptized that my Temple recommend would be taken away from me if I failed to pay my tithes.
I think, again, people assume that tithing is taught as a requirement of baptism and attending the temple, so they also assume it’s understood that not paying tithing means not attending the temple. There isn’t a good reason for that assumption, since converts can’t intuit lots of things that aren’t taught explicitly, but it’s easy to see why they might not think about it.
Quote:3. No one told me about callings and how it’s nearly impossible to turn them down when they are taking up nearly all free time after working all day.
This is another thing that is assumed by most active members, and the concept of accepting callings and serving in the Church also is supposed to be covered by the missionaries in the last lesson. If no one told you about callings, that also is the fault of the missionaries. The pressure to accept every calling is a completely different issue, but, again, many members don’t see it as “nearly impossible to turn down”, since so many don’t even consider turning them down.
Quote:4. There are several basic doctrinal issues that were misrepresented during the short time of my investigation. What I find is that these issues are in direct conflict with what I believe.
I have no way of commenting about this, since I don’t know what those doctrines are and how they were represented.
Quote:And – interestingly enough – my life was in order when I joined. However, 3.5 years and several major life events later, and I find it is true – the LDS church is not the place for a person whose life has gotten “the short end of the stick.”
It actually works really well for lots of converts who have gotten “the short end of the stick” – but it doesn’t for others. As I said in my previous comment, the difference almost always is the attitudes of the local leaders and members. Many are aloof and judgmental; many are open, loving and compassionate. The irony is that your ward might be different in a few years, when the local leaderships changes – but it might not. It’s a roll of the dice, unfortunately.
Quote:I do find I’m treated differently since my divorce (i.e. read – much, much less $$).
Yeah, that is very common – and it is wrong. It’s something we must address in our culture. Having said that, it almost never is about lower income, in and of itself. It’s much more a factor of how obsessed we are with the traditional family.
Quote:Maybe that’s why the church is so successful – maybe the converts that “make it” are the ones that are already successful.
Honestly, I don’t see that correlation in most situations I’ve seen. Ive seen financially and socially successful converts stop attending, and I’ve seen poor, socially awkward converts succeed wonderfully. In my experience, the biggest factor is a loving, supportive local congregation.
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