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I’m raised in the church. I’m a return missionary. Married with kids. My family has been 100% active members for the full 20 years of my marriage and we hold callings. I have tested my beliefs many times over by fervent studying, praying, and keeping the commandments but unfortunately can’t not say the church is true. The more I study the more I am confirmed of this. I came to this unfortunate and heartbreaking realization about 3 years ago. I still very much love the church and the members. I stopped paying tithing to the LDS church and love that I can donate so much to other charity causes instead. My temple recommend expired a while back. I continue to stay pure in every way and attend everything with my faithfully believing wife and kids. My wife and I regularly talk about this issue but my kids have no idea. My faithful wife would not want me to discuss my disbelief with the kids. I’d also rather not crush my kids with the history of the church either. My oldest son is preparing for his mission and about to turn in his papers. I don’t have any problem with this. I think a mission teaches so much to a young man and would be a fantastic thing to do. Here is my big problem…. In just a few weeks, my son will be asking me to go through the temple with him and ordain him. He has no idea that I do not have a temple recommend and no longer believe the LDS church to be the one and only true church. It could crush him to find out that his dad doesn’t believe lots of what we are supposed to believe. He looks up to me. I have thought I could play along for my wife’s sake and try to get my temple recommend just to do this for them but I don’t feel right about that either. Getting a recommend requires saying yes to things I shouldn’t say yes to, and being a full tithe payer for a year. Being a full tithe payer is not a simple thing to do just to go through the temple once for your son. One idea is to find a way to be out of town when my son wants to go through the temple but my son would know that there is no way I would pick a work trip over supporting him on a big day like this. I don’t know what to do. Someone out there must have been through this situation. Can anyone share their story to help me with this? Thank you! Hi Bob, Bobdecker wrote:
unfortunately can’t not say the church is true. The more I study the more I am confirmed of this.
I am right there with you. It still may be true at the core but wrapped up in a very human – messy shell that makes it act in very human ways – similar to other churches. Perhaps all/most churches share certain true core principles in common and they mix that with large doses of speculation, dogma, and culture.
Bobdecker wrote:
Here is my big problem…. In just a few weeks, my son will be asking me to go through the temple with him and ordain him.
I assume that he is not yet an elder. I personally would work with my bishop to ordain my son because I wish to pass on the priesthood line of authority that was given to me- almost like a birthright. I believe that the CHI says that you should be “temple worthy” to perform this ordinance but the bishop has some latitude.Whether or not you are able to work out the “ordain” side of the equation I think that you should give a measure of honesty to your son. You could tell him that you let your tithing lapse, that your recommend expired, and that you no longer have the funds that it would take to play catch up. You are very sorry but that you are unable to escort him through the temple. You could then discuss possible alternatives – such as a grandfather to stand in.
In this way you are telling the truth – that you do not have a TR and are in arrears for tithing – without telling him about your faith crisis or that about church history.
Bobdecker wrote:
being a full tithe payer for a year
I am not sure that this is church policy. some bishops may accept a beginning to pay tithing and a commitment to continue. Other bishops may want some additional evidence of your commitment. May depend on your bishop and your situation. I believe if your bishop does not know about your doubts he will be more likely to work with you and be more lenient to forgive the past non-payment of tithing. If your bishop knows about your shortcomings in the belief department he may be more likely to make you jump through hoops to demonstrate a true change of heart.
Bobdecker wrote:
Getting a recommend requires saying yes to things I shouldn’t say yes to,
Please see this thread dealing with all the temple recommend questions and ways to genuinely answer them in the affirmative (even with varying levels of belief). Sometimes if we just look at the question for what it is asking and ignore all the unstated baggage or implications then we find that the TR questions are not quite as onerous as they first appear.
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5534 Bobdecker, Sorry to hear about your paradox. There is no good way out, I’m afraid. There are only hard ways and harder ways. So, when you choose, recognize that you are not choosing between Choice A and Eternal Bliss. You are choosing between Choice A and Choice B, neither of which is ideal.
FWIW, I had a very similar story to yours. In my case, it was the impeding temple marriage for a daughter. I felt very trapped. I couldn’t be dishonest to the Church. I had to be honest with my family. Not saying anything about it was OK right up until that time, but eventually, I knew I was going to have to say it out loud… not only to my daughter, but to my other children, my parents, my dear friends, my in-laws. It weighed heavily on me for years, and got worse as the inevitable day got closer. For me, I fell into deepening depression.
Everyone has a different take on this. I can’t argue that for some, rationalizing the TR questions to be able to go to the temple is much better than crushing a loved-one. I’m fine with that. However, for me and for me alone, I knew I could not do that.
In my deepest, darkest depression, I started to see a counselor. He gave me this great understanding: “family secrets are not good.”
I came to realize that my trying to keep the secret was worse than any effect of being honest. So, I worked toward gathering the courage. Finally, with fear and trembling, I sat down with my daughter and explained that I was no longer a believer… that there was nothing wrong with me, but that because I was no longer a believer, I would not be able to join her in the temple… that I fully supported her being married in the temple… that I would be there waiting when she emerged… that I love the Church and the people and supported her faith unflinchingly… and that I loved her. I then repeated a similar conversation, one at a time, with each of the other people who needed to know.
Some take-aways. This is only for me, YMMV.
– No one was ‘crushed’. My daughter was still married in the temple. I sent out later missionaries. I’m not saying they were happy to hear the news, but they internalized it and processed it and owned it themselves.
– No one stopped loving me. I received only love from my loved-ones.
– The release of all the pent-up angst was amazing. I felt better after than I had felt for a really long time.
My suggestion would be to work it out with your wife. Explain that you can’t be dishonest and that you can’t keep family secrets. In exchange for your desire, commit to support your family in the Church. Explain that you have no desire to be anti-the-Church-or-its-people. When you tell your loved ones, explain, simply, that you no longer believe, so that it doesn’t come out as an accusation against their faith. We have a too-strong desire for validation, but letting go of it is a first step to being your own person. With that in mind, there’s just no reason to impose the ‘why’ on any believer.
I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do.
Hi Bob, I feel like I share a lot of common ground with you. I love the Church. I wish it was true. But I know (for pretty sure) that it is not, even at its core. I also let my TR expire, and couldn’t bring myself to get it renewed, largely because of those beginning questions. I still keep the commandments (chastity, tithing, WoW, honesty, etc), but I cannot bring myself to give the correct answer to those questions with having so many caveats. I read the post that Roy was pointing to, and while I completely understand it working for some, I don’t feel like I can be honest in those questions.
It sounds like it’s going to come down to two options: 1. You get a temple recommend, and your son believes you are someone you are not. 2. You don’t get a temple recommend, and don’t give an explaination, which causes your son to assume; probably that you are addicted to porn (what else could it be?). 3. You don’t get your TR, you give your son an honest explaination, which he might or might not believe, and could still make assumptions. It’s a tough spot to be in. I wouldn’t at all blame you for going with #1.
I’m a big believer in honesty and transparancy. The Church has hurt me plenty, by twisting the truth, leaving out the details, and at times being very dishonest and deceptive. They’ll always claim honesty though, because “Not telling everything isn’t the same as lying”, “We didn’t want to hurt your faith”, “What I told you was true, from a certain point of view”, etc. But in the end, they have not been honest with me. I’ve got to be better than that.
Choosing not to hold a temple recommend has been liberating to me. Now, there is nothing the Church can hold over my head, nothing to control me with. I set my relationship with the Church on my own terms. It’ll be tough on your son, who will undoubtably spend much of his mission fasting and praying, and trying to make deals with God that his hard work will bring you back to activity. Your wife will probably be disappointed. But I promise things will get better. I’d also want to echo everything On Own Now has said. Best of luck to you, friend.
I told my daughter tithing was an issue and gave a watered down version of my issues. I said I could get a TR but couldn’t guarantee I could hold it forever. She told me she would rather I sat outside the temple at her wedding than get a TR just to be there. So that is what I did. The moment passed and we never talk about it now. If your wife is refusing to let you have the talk, then the only way is to go through the TR interview with interpretation of the questions that allows the right responses, get the TR, pay tithing for a while or the whole year, and then decide how you feel later.
How many chidlren do you have? It’s easier if you have fewer children or have them really spaced apart.
I think it’s good they don’t know your faith crisis issues though so you don’t burst their bubbles…
The tithing for a year thing is not in the handbook. There is no stipulation, just the question. I know of stakes and bishops who arbitrarily decide you need to pay so long before getting recommend (though I’ve never heard of any more than 6 months), but if people have been assuming you’re fully active and engaged, I’d suspect they’d take your word for it and not ask further. It’s your interpretation that matters. If you pay online directly to SLC, local leaders won’t know anyway. This is a conundrum, but I’d suggest family is more important, so base your decision on that guiding idea, perhaps. If you don’t believe it, to pretend you do to support your son and not freak him out at this point in his life is at most disingenuous, and assuming you’d eventually tell him, is also probably something he’d completely understand. To not support him and not tell him why would probably cause him a lot of worry. To not support and tell him would also probably cause worry, but would certainly lead to some great discussion. If he knows you have doubts, he’d probably wanna hear them. Assuming you’d eventually tell him, … again he’d probably understand.
If you’re not sure what you believe, probably take the safe route.
We all have our stories with similarities and differences. In my case I was totally inactive during my kids’ teenage years. None of my three sons were ordained to any priesthood and the youngest wasn’t even baptized although all were active and attended church with Mom every week. My oldest son left for a mission while I was inactive, I did not participate in his ordination, setting apart, etc. This is the biggest regret of my life.Let me just say that again for emphasis. This is the biggest regret of my life.That’s not because I believe the church is true or that the priesthood is some great power or any other of the myriad of things one might think – because I don’t know that the church is any truer than any other church and I don’t think the priesthood is all that special. It is because I did not participate in those rites of passage, nor give them the opportunity to participate in those rites of passage. It was not important to me at the time (or at least I did not understand how important it should have been), but it was important to them. And I am truly sorry. My advice (only offered because you asked): Do what you need to do for/with your son – it’s a one shot deal.
If it were me I’d suck it up and go through the temple w my son. Personally I know that if I missed such an important moment that I’d regret it forever. Some people don’t feel that way which is ok too. It may depend on which type you are. There is no policy about how long you must pay tithing before you get a recommend, although it’s entirely possible your local leaders are ornery in that regard. In my area it’s about 2-3 months. I’ve never heard of a full year although it’s certainly possible. Also there is no official definition of tithing and a lot of leeway about how to interpret temple recommend questions as others have stated.
If my kid were to leave the church and marry in a religion or manner that I had strong reservations about – say I’d spend thousands to attend a wedding in a distant and strange country – I’d almost certainly attend to show my love.
Cnsl1 wrote:
The tithing for a year thing is not in the handbook. There is no stipulation, just the question. I know of stakes and bishops who arbitrarily decide you need to pay so long before getting recommend (though I’ve never heard of any more than 6 months), but if people have been assuming you’re fully active and engaged, I’d suspect they’d take your word for it and not ask further. It’s your interpretation that matters. If you pay online directly to SLC, local leaders won’t know anyway.
This is correct, there’s no rule… but it’s entirely up to leadership roulette.
A year or so ago Elder Bednar spoke at a regional stake conference. During the broadcast he shared a story, I believe it was from during his time as a stake president. It was about a father that wanted to be with his daughter when she was sealed in the temple but he hadn’t paid tithing in years and didn’t have a TR. The father approached his bishop, paid back tithing, but the bishop (for whatever reason) denied him a TR. The father appealed to his stake president (Bednar) but was told he was given wise counsel. It’s been a while since I heard the story, that’s what I remember. I can’t remember whether a reason was ever given, perhaps there was an implication that the leaders worried that the father would go right back to not paying tithing after attending the sealing.
My only point. Leadership roulette.
Switching gears.
I lean toward being open with your son. Often I wonder whether 30 out of 40 people attending SS aren’t secretly thinking, “Man this lesson about the Book of Mormon translation isn’t accurate at all. I wonder if I should clarify some points and bring up the essays. Nah, I don’t want to make waves.” The lesson ends and no one has said anything and everyone assumes they are all alone when in fact they are in the majority.
You never know. Your son may worry that they are alone in their thoughts and may not know where to turn or in whom to confide. If they knew your situation it could increase the bond. I’m not saying that’s your reality or even a possible outcome but when we’re more authentic I think we stand a better chance of making authentic connections.
I am a mom who did suck up and do the recommend event. Now in fairness my daughter knew that her dad wouldn’t come nor support her. They had some tense harsh conversations but each honored their truth and they are still connected. My daughter knew that I was no longer traditional, but that I love many things in the church. She is my oldest. Her entire life, the temple was the end goal (she was just taking out her own endowments, no wedding or mission connected to it). Her dad used to stop on trips, have the kids get out of the car and take pictures by all the temple’s we passed. We were her parents and her seminary and YW leaders. In my heart I couldn’t just drop her life goal off on the front steps. It would be like parental phoning in.
I answered the questions as needed. My Bishop was more supportive of me getting a recommend than challenging me on the details. (That is because I have watched him with other people he has let get recommends). Part of my promise to her was that I would always be in the temple with her. I gave her my robes, and such, they were a gift from my mother and mother in law back in the day. Every time she attends the temple, all three of us are with her in spirit and symbolically.
Symbolically is the key point. What symbolism do you and your son want to share? If it were me, I would share your feelings with him, let him decide. But be ready if he wants you. Maybe even obtain the recommend before you talk to him.
Last of all, they don’t have your tithing record in front of them when they interview you. And recommends are an every 2 year deal. Depending on when you last got it, you can just grab a bishopric member, they definitely don’t have paperwork in front of them.
FINALLY!! I can’t tell you how incredibly great I feel right now. THANK YOU SO MUCH!! Just simply finding a forum of people going through similar things and being able to talk about this sort of thing is so incredibly relieving. I have been depressed and crushed over the past few years by not having anyone to talk to about these things. I can’t even talk to my closest of friends about this. About a year ago I wanted so bad to talk to someone about it that I called my old Sunday school teacher who had left the church, and went out to lunch with him. I asked him to lunch for one reason, to find out how he is dealing with everyone knowing he no longer believes. I just couldn’t get myself to say anything about my faith crisis during lunch. It’s so good to find this forum to FINALLY be able to talk freely. Everyone’s advice is fantastic but I am still unsure what to do. Im sure time will tell but right now Im not ready for anyone to know how I believe or don’t believe. I have been able to attend and participate in church without going crazy for the last few years by thinking that even if its not completely true, that it can’t hurt to participate in ordinances. There are so many good things that come from families raised with all the ethics and community. I have played along this long and am thinking at the stage I’m in now, I should continue to play along by getting my recommend and taking my son through the temple in a few weeks. Im not 100% about this. I could be choosing this path because it seems the easiest and wont hurt my marriage either.
It is not appropriate to share personal financials but being an anonymous forum I will tell you this to understand and offer advice. My bishop knows my financial situation too well. He lives a few doors down. He and I both invest and we have done a few large business deals together last year. He knows I make way too much money a year and I have more than most in investments and assets. My wife sat down with him in tithing settlement in December without me and told him I was not going to pay any tithing last year. Im not sure what she said to him but she spent about an hour in tithing settlement and came home crying. So, if I go sit down with my bishop now, he knows I didn’t pay last year, and he knows that I do have the funds to pay it all. I think he will expect that if I truly believe, I will pay it all. My bishop doesn’t know that I have tried to donate the full 10% to other charities, but I have only given to the LDS church through the humanitarian fund, Fast offerings, and scouting last year. I just cannot simply hand the bishop a few thousand dollars for a month of tithing and get a temple recommend in exchange. I know that it is awful to buy a temple recommend just so my son wont have to question his/my beliefs or think his dad must be a sinner. So to wrap up this thought, I don’t think I can get myself to pay the expected amount of tithing to build more temples. I would be only be comfortable donating more to the humanitarian fund, scouting, YM YW programs, fast offerings, and perpetual education fund. I don’t have any problem donating to other good and charitable things that the church does for others. Could I tell the bishop I’m a full “tithe” payer if I donate to the other funds and not tithing?
Yeah – You may have to make a choice. I am so sorry. If it were me, I would tell my son first. He needs to know. As to your friend the Bishop, I don’t know. These crisis are the worst on so many levels. Again, I am sorry. In my book you are a full tithe payer. You are giving a full 10% to God, according to your conscience. Will the Bishop see it that way? Maybe not. But when the question comes up, you can answer with a resounding yes. If you can honestly tell him you’ve prayed about it, and recieved a strong confirmation that’s what God would have you do, there is no way he can argue it. If the Bishop pushes further, you can tell him that’s between you and the Lord. But that’s the least challenging part of the Temple Recommend, I think. Although, it sounds like you might be good friends with your Bishop. I wouldn’t normally recommend this (far from it), but the “leadership roulette” might be in your favor. Have you considered being 100% open and honest with your bishop about your situation? Most Bishop’s wouldn’t understand, but if your close you might be able to convince him you are acting on what faith you have; even though you have differing beliefs, you’re doing all you can to follow God “according to the dictates of [your] own consience” (see article of faith 11), and that the love of your son is why you want to be with him for his endowments. Who knows, he might give you a temple recommend anyways? Or if not, he might give some good advice on what to do. Or… it could all blow up in your face (hey, I’m just some guy on the internet
I wish you all the best, Bob. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
I have a few similarities to your situation. I have not paid tithing since my faith crisis.
For me, I had believed too strongly that tithing was being exchanged for blessings. I felt betrayed and misled first by God – than later by church members that had made promises for God that He might never have intended.
I am financially better off than many. I certainly cannot make any sort of claim that I cannot afford tithing.
I do not have a TR. I am working hard to be available for my children’s milestones. I was able to baptize my children. I confirmed one and my FIL confirmed the other. I plan to ordain my son in a few years. My interactions with the bishop are geared to help make that happen.
My children know that we do not accept without question everything that is spoken at church. I have especially tried to counter program the looking down at non-church members for not living church standards (WoW, modesty, use of OMG, etc.). I suppose I present to them a non-traditional but still positive faith. My children pay tithing and they assume that I do too.
I do not plan to get a TR to attend my children’s possible endowments sessions or temple sealings. I figure that by then my children will be older, more mature, and more able to understand that I love and support them even though I cannot be there with them.
Bobdecker, I’m in a similar situation. My son will be ordained an elder and go through the temple within the next few weeks. He will leave for his mission this summer. I’ve had to work through some mental gymnastics to get on board with him serving a mission for a church I no longer, and maybe never, believed in. That said, my resolution is similar to yours; I can think of nothing better for him to do other than to get out of the house on his own for two years. I did the same thing. I’d never want to do it again, but I’m very glad I have my mission experience. But not for the church reasons. It’s because it made me a man, and I learned to care for others above myself.
It’s fascinating how we all have different issues. I’m pretty good with tithing (but certainly not 10% of gross). Watching the church build lavish temples, malls, and huge office buildings while we have giant holes in our parking lot and the members do all the janitorial is making this much harder to justify. My biggest issues are that I’m not great with WoW or core belief in the church. I have a current TR, but it is likely my last one. Up to now I have been able to morally (to me) navigate the TR questions. With my WoW lapses increasing and core “church” belief and attendance decreasing, I don’t think I can continue with a TR. This will be a problem with my wife. When I first vocalized my faith crisis to her (some years ago), she asked me to promise to always have a TR. I agreed in order to give her some hope to cling to. This was a mistake. She is aware of some, but not all of my WoW issues. She doesn’t like or understand this part of me very much. She thinks it’s stupid to start “all this” in my 40s. She doesn’t realize that I’m finally acting on things I’ve suppressed MY WHOLE LIFE. When we’ve talked about it, she says no one can answer the TR questions 100% perfectly, since we are all far from perfect. She will not be happy with a no TR husband.
All that said, my goal is to get my son on his mission. Whatever that takes. Including going through the temple, which I’ve successfully avoided for many years. I will do this for my son, even though it is among one of the last things I would like to do. The whole thing is bizarre, weird and uncomfortable. Just thinking about it creeps me out.
It’s time for another conversation with my wife. I don’t like the secrets. I’m not asking her to condone what I’m doing, and I’m not going to ask her to follow me, but we have to reach a new equilibrium. We will have to discuss what and how to tell the kids (if anything).
Back to you Bob… if you know and trust your bishop, why not ask him what it will take to get your TR? I understand this is leadership roulette, but if you have a good relationship with him, maybe it will be favorable. In my circumstances, I will NEVER discuss ANY of my issues with leadership, but you’re in a tighter spot than me with fewer options. You either have to do what it takes to get a TR, and hope you can do that in time, or you have to accept that you will not be a part of your sons mission prep (along with telling him why).
I earnestly wish you the best of luck, and would love to hear what you end up doing.
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