Knowing the Church is true

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Testimony meetings have been a part of the Church since its beginning – just not as a once-a-month thing coupled with fasting. I don’t know when that started off the top of my head.

At one point fast meeting was on a Thursday.

Roy wrote:

I have never encountered anything like it in other churches that I have visited.”

Tesitimonies are very common in evangelical meetings and Quaker services have always been based on spontaneous expressions as moved by the spirit. As far as fasting goes about half the liturgical year in the Orthodox tradition are feasts with associated fasts of one sort or another.

[Anonymous]

I found an article that talked about LDS growth trends from an outsider’s (Lutheran) perspective. He had the following to say about testimony meeting:

Quote:

TESTIMONY

For Mormons, the first Sunday of the month usually includes a testimony

and fast meeting. The money that would have been spent on food is given to the

church, usually above the tithe. Individuals also give oral testimony in the gathered

community. Of course, this is hardly a unique LDS practice; in my experience and

according to credible witnesses, this testimony practice is much like that found in

traditional Christianity. One can usually predict who will give testimony and what

the content is likely to be. Much of the testimony takes on a rhetorical shape and

purpose that functions in a ritual manner. Nonetheless, the young get to hear their

parents and grandparents speak of their faith; the old hear the old story told in new

and young voices; they all turn their hearts to one another and are active participants

in the shaping of their witness and its interpretation.

This contrasts with most typical Protestant services where only the paid professionals

speak and interpret the narrative of their life together. If we truly want

our children to have faith and our faith to have children, we might want to provide

for regular opportunities to learn how to speak about faith. While testimonial services

have many drawbacks, they appear to continue to work for Mormons, supporting

outcomes many other Christians desire.

This practice among Mormons, or its absence among many Christians in North America,

leads me to wonder aloud how we believe that God makes God’s self known across the

generations. Further, I realize that many congregations exhibit

strong resistance to introducing this practice, because they do not want to

listen to the same old, tired, worn-out testimonies or listen to ignorant and inarticulate

expressions of the faith22 or be expected to make their own testimony

against their will.23 Some of the emotional energy in this resistance reveals class

consciousness, because such behavior often is identified with the peasant- and

working-class religious traditions. The strongest emotions of those driving this resistance

come from outright fear that they will be shamed. The power of shame in

our congregations reveals a working theology, a sense that who we are and our limited

or modest witness to faith is somehow shameful.

I found his observations thought provoking.

[Anonymous]

katzpur testamony meeting is hard for me to sit through for many of the same reasons that you state. I just take books, a fully charged cell phone, and if all else fails I blame it on my back and leave. I used to love it when I was a TBM. Now, at times it is entertaining in a very funny way and other times it is funny in a pathetic way. Sometimes I can get the whole family in stitches text messaging them or just sticking my tounge out at them. 😈

[Anonymous]

Katzpur wrote:

doubtingthomas wrote:

Then again, that letter also said not to spend the time with thankimonies, travel logs, and to keep them short and Christ/gospel-centered. It’s a rare occasion that I see any of that.

I have a real problem with the thankimonies, too, because what they really are is bragamonies in disguise. “I’m so thankful for my eight wonderful children. All of them graduated from Seminary. All of them went on missions. And all of them married in the temple. One of my sons has just been called to the stake high council, and two of them are bishops. One of my daughters is married to a stake president and one is the stake Young Women’s President. We’re so blessed!” A former Relief Society President in my ward once actually said, “My boys are such good boys. I’m so grateful for them. I just know that Heavenly Father looked down on me and said, ‘I’m going to give her good children. She deserves to have good childen.'” That’s the last thing a mother who has two inactive children (out of two total) needs to hear. I mean I know I made mistakes raising my kids, but to have to listen to people brag about their blessings is just too much.

Once in a great while, I’ll hear a testimony that is incredible. It just happens so rarely and this other stuff happens every single time.

You’re right. I love it when there are such incredible testimonies but nine times out of 10, it’s just what you’ve said.

[Anonymous]

You know sometimes I would love to stand up and say something along the lines that ‘I believe that through Christs Atonement I will be saved, that if not for the atonement everything all the prophets have done is useless and means nothing. And that I am glad I am at a place that I believe that, and the atonement doesn’t need the validation of the church being true to still be the atonement.’ then sit down. I am sure I would be escorted out of the building, out of the church and maybe off the planet.

[Anonymous]

Arwen, fwiw, I’ve said basically that same thing in quite a few meetings before (both in talks and in testimonies) – but I’ve chosen my words carefully so it doesn’t come out sounding quite like that. 🙂 I’ve never been challenged for it, largely because I’ve made sure I said it in words and a tone that those hearing it would recognize as “faithful” and “Mormony”.

[Anonymous]

Arwen wrote:

You know sometimes I would love to stand up and say something along the lines that ‘I believe that through Christs Atonement I will be saved, that if not for the atonement everything all the prophets have done is useless and means nothing. And that I am glad I am at a place that I believe that, and the atonement doesn’t need the validation of the church being true to still be the atonement.’ then sit down. I am sure I would be escorted out of the building, out of the church and maybe off the planet.

I would love to hear that testimony arwen. I may just steal your idea and go ahead and give the next chance I get.

[Anonymous]

Putting the piste into epistemology…

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

I found an article that talked about LDS growth trends from an outsider’s (Lutheran) perspective. He had the following to say about testimony meeting:

Quote:

TESTIMONY

For Mormons, the first Sunday of the month usually includes a testimony and fast meeting. The money that would have been spent on food is given to the church, usually above the tithe. Individuals also give oral testimony in the gathered community. Of course, this is hardly a unique LDS practice; in my experience and according to credible witnesses, this testimony practice is much like that found in traditional Christianity. One can usually predict who will give testimony and what the content is likely to be. Much of the testimony takes on a rhetorical shape and purpose that functions in a ritual manner. Nonetheless, the young get to hear their parents and grandparents speak of their faith; the old hear the old story told in new and young voices; they all turn their hearts to one another and are active participants in the shaping of their witness and its interpretation. This contrasts with most typical Protestant services where only the paid professionals speak and interpret the narrative of their life together. If we truly want our children to have faith and our faith to have children, we might want to provide for regular opportunities to learn how to speak about faith. While testimonial services have many drawbacks, they appear to continue to work for Mormons, supporting outcomes many other Christians desire.

This practice among Mormons, or its absence among many Christians in North America, leads me to wonder aloud how we believe that God makes God’s self known across the generations. Further, I realize that many congregations exhibit strong resistance to introducing this practice, because they do not want to listen to the same old, tired, worn-out testimonies or listen to ignorant and inarticulate expressions of the faith22 or be expected to make their own testimony against their will.23 Some of the emotional energy in this resistance reveals class consciousness, because such behavior often is identified with the peasant- and working-class religious traditions. The strongest emotions of those driving this resistance come from outright fear that they will be shamed. The power of shame in our congregations reveals a working theology, a sense that who we are and our limited or modest witness to faith is somehow shameful.

I found his observations thought provoking.

22Of course, these testimonies are likely to reveal substantial ignorance, confusion, and even outright false

teaching. Can one imagine a better way for the local pastor, teacher, or bishop to gain insight into the faith life of the

congregation on a regular basis than such candid testimony?

23Often, I find this fear of the will being coerced into action out of the same lips that regularly condemn the

practice of testimony as individualistic. They seem oblivious to their own individualism.

I realized that I neglected to include the foot notes. Mr. Keifert is looking at LDS practices and theological elements that could be applied to Lutheranism to grow the church and help capture the next generation (the average age of many congregations is fast trending upwards). The main points of his observations on testimony meetings are worth repeating:

Quote:

Nonetheless, the young get to hear their parents and grandparents speak of their faith; the old hear the old story told in new and young voices; they all turn their hearts to one another and are active participants in the shaping of their witness and its interpretation.

We are active participants. The arrogant and proud, the uninformed, the parrots, the old and the young, the humble, the wise and inspired are all co-participants and co-shapers.

Quote:

If we truly want our children to have faith and our faith to have children, we might want to provide for regular opportunities to learn how to speak about faith….[without such a practice I]…wonder aloud how we believe that God makes God’s self known across the generations.

As annoying and possibly inappropriate as having young children participate may be, this is precisely the combination of indoctrination participation/faith growth experimentation that begins the process of handing the faith baton off to the next generation.

Quote:

Of course, these testimonies are likely to reveal substantial ignorance, confusion, and even outright false teaching. Can one imagine a better way for the local pastor, teacher, or bishop to gain insight into the faith life of the congregation on a regular basis than such candid testimony?

I’ve said before that much of what I understand from F&T meeting is “I am one of you,” expressions of solidarity and community affirmation. Yet the most intriguing and even inspiring testimonies are the ones that present a journey dissimilar from my own. Testimony allows all of us to “gain insight into the faith life of the congregation”, the good –the bad – and the ugly.

[Anonymous]

Bearing testimony is very common in Pentecostal.

[Author]

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