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I was born and raised LDS in a large family outside of Utah. My MANY siblings and I all went to seminary, were eagle scouts, served missions, and were all married in the temple. I had a great mission (DL, ZL) and had lots of good spiritual experiences. In my exit interview blessing from my mission president I was told that I would return to that country as a mission president. I married a very good Mormon girl right after my mission. We went to BYU, then grad school at USU, had 6 kids (now ages 17 down to 3), served as EQP, ward mission leader, lots of young men’s presidencies etc. Unlike many who are disaffected, I fit in very well at church, I have many friends and I feel respected there. I’m about 40 yrs old, love reading and knowledge, and am a research scientist. I work with lots of international students with a wide variety of religious and cultural backgrounds. I’ve always needed evidence that the church was true. For my whole life, my testimony has had three pillars: 1) It didn’t seem possible that The Book of Mormon was written by Joseph. 2) I have felt the spirit at a few key times of my life, and 3) The gospel seems to work in people’s lives to help them be happier.
What happened? I read an introduction to Geology textbook. The evidence that the earth is very, very old (5.4 Billion yrs) is all around us. There isn’t just a little evidence for evolution, there are MOUNTAINS of evidence for it. I see evidences for evolution in human behavior as well. Then I read “Escape” and “Innocence Lost” about FLDS women who described their experiences as polygamist wives in, and then escape from a community of people who followed Warren Jeffs unconditionally as a prophet. They “knew” Warren Jeffs was a true prophet of God. I was concerned about the continued changes in the temple ceremony, did God get it wrong the first time? I did the math. 99.9% of all of God’s children on earth don’t have his true gospel? Is God that inefficient and ineffective? He must not really care if people don’t belong to his true church. I mulled that over for years.
Then I accidentally found MormonThink.com. There I found some evidence that makes it much more possible that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. And although the Book of Mormon is a remarkable book, so is the Koran… it really is. One leg of my three-legged stool was kicked out. Frankly, I am bored at church and seldom am inspired any more. On the contrary I feel the spirit much more at times unrelated to gospel “truths”. Also, people in other religions have many very real and moving spiritual experiences. So God is confirming contradictory truths? Another leg kicked out. And, I found that many other belief systems besides LDS help people to be happier. Last leg kicked out. On top of that I learned all of these facts about church history that kept reducing the probability that the church was true. All of the most troubling facts are confirmed by FAIR.
I’ve found that most often reasoning and logic lead people to the correct answer, whereas emotion (especially fear) leads people to make bad decisions (think investing, but also dating). That doesn’t mean I am not an emotional person however, and I really am mourning the loss of my faith. On one hand I feel liberated and freed from the guilt that is no short supply in the church, but on the other hand I now have to face uncertainty. It is changing my view of everything. The worst part is that in order for me to avoid being judged as an unfaithful, bad, and even dangerous person by my family, kids, and friends I have to essentially live a lie. I mourn the loss of my integrity. However, I am choosing to sacrifice it for my family and friends.
Welcome Tim, I wish there were proper words to convey how I feel for you loss – it is real, it is painful and difficult for so many different reasons. I have been there, I can tell you it gets better several more miles down the road. You don’t want to stand still and I don’t believe you will. I totally get what you’re saying about being willing to lose your integrity. I know what it’s like to ponder the complexities of that decision. For what it’s worth I think you are
doingthe right thing, but in time I hope you come to understand your actions in other terms. I think it is possible to be both honest and kind when an overtheidealweight person asks “do I look look fat?” But it does take
a lotof time to sort through thoughts and positions to become confident in where you are and how you got there. Glad to have you!
Hello Tim, Welcome! It sounds like you may be a little battered and bruised by your experience, but the good news is that you have come to the right place to heal up and move forward (wherever that may take you).
I just wanted to address a few of your points, not in an attempt to persuade you, but to perhaps open up a space where the things you’ve found don’t seem quite so damning.
You worry about the age of the Earth and evolution. So have many of the apostles! In fact, there was significant disagreement between the Quorum of the Twelve, and in the end, the church made some official statements that I’ll let you interpret for yourself. Here’s the link to the pdf
http://www.mormonfortress.com/evolution.pdfhttp://www.mormonfortress.com/evolution.pdf” class=”bbcode_url”> I can’t speak to the Warren Jeffs issue. One of the things I worry most about is how people “know” things. I have a sneaking suspicion that we humans can convince ourselves we “know” just about anything. It’s a thorny issue.
There are some good threads here on the board about the temple. Just type “temple” in the search bar, and I think you’ll find some good stuff.
I’m not quite following your argument about the 99.9%. Are you saying that only .1% of the earth’s population is Mormon? Or that only .1% of the earth’s population has had the opportunity to have the gospel preached to them? If you’re worried about the former, it may help you to think about the fact that there just happen to be about as many Jews (God’s chosen people, if you believe the Bible) as there are Mormons.
http://www.jewfaq.org/populatn.htmhttp://www.jewfaq.org/populatn.htm” class=”bbcode_url”> Finally, you say “I learned all of these facts about church history that kept reducing the probability that the church was true”. This is interesting because when I have left the church or thought about leaving it, I have always asked myself whether the probability that the church isn’t “true” outweighs the probability that the church is “true”. What I’ve come to realize over the years is that this isn’t a fair question. The more I study, the more I see that I haven’t even scratched the surface of what is available (both pro and anti). Knowing that, I have to admit that my calculations regarding probability are crude at the very best. Maybe you feel differently. Again, just something to look at…
I hope you enjoy the board. It’s a wonderful place to air your concerns without the fear of being judged.
Tim Welcome to the board. I hope you find the same kind of uplift that I have from reading this board. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to go back to how I felt about the church before I had my eyes opened. I feel for you, this is hard to deal with.
I am having the exact same questions concerns and doubts that you are. We have very similar family situations as well. My biggest concern is definitely how to work my way through this without hurting my family.
I am currently operating under the premise that progression requires change. I think that maybe my faith and understanding needed to evolve past my former orthodox strict views. I really believe I’m on the right path and to reject that would essentially stop my progress. I don’t think going back is an option for me. I see everything a bit different than I did before and honestly I think my new outlook is more Christlike and charitable than it was before.
I don’t know how long it will take to figure out this new position I find myself in, long I am afraid. Not surprising though when I consider how many years it took to get me where I was prior to my awakening, why shouldn’t it take an equally long time to relearn or modify that into something deeper.
Welcome. I have a science background and understand where you’re coming from. Welcome. I won’t go into details right now, but I will say that there are very legitimate ways for intelligent members to view each of the issues you mentioned and remain active, faithful, even “believing” members of the LDS Church. They just can’t be believers of a lot of what is believed by a lot of members – and I’m cool and totally at peace with that.
As for evolution, the Church’s official statement leaves evolution open as a possibility as to how our physical bodies were created. So, officially, the Church’s position is that we don’t know the exact details of that process – and there are many leaders who are not young earth proponents. Within all of Christianity, Mormon theology and scriptures uniquely address an easy way to accept evolution.
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I will take your suggestions seriously. It helps me to know that others have gotten through it.. Tim, I feel your pain man. While I can see the points of others that staying in the church is a good thing, it’s the seeming fact that it is not the true church that has me perplexed. The church is set up on obedience, which I did not have a problem with, as I believed that all the council was coming directly from God through living prophets. The difficult thing for me is reconciling the fact that this absolute truth is most likely not the case. In other faiths they give council and you have the option to take it or not, if it works for you. In the LDS faith if you don’t take the council you can find yourself in hot water. For instance I am not a drinker and have always followed the word of wisdom since it was supposed to be revealed revelation. Many of my friends are not members of the church and drink socially, while drinking is not my thing, why should I not have a social drink with them if I see fit. I really do not want to at this time but now there is nothing holding me back from doing so if I want to. It’s a very interesting place we find ourselves in. Hang in there.
Tim, Quote:I’ve found that most often reasoning and logic lead people to the correct answer, whereas emotion (especially fear) leads people to make bad decisions (think investing, but also dating). That doesn’t mean I am not an emotional person however, and I really am mourning the loss of my faith. On one hand I feel liberated and freed from the guilt that is no short supply in the church, but on the other hand I now have to face uncertainty. It is changing my view of everything. The worst part is that in order for me to avoid being judged as an unfaithful, bad, and even dangerous person by my family, kids, and friends I have to essentially live a lie. I mourn the loss of my integrity. However, I am choosing to sacrifice it for my family and friends.
There are a few things that I try to remember. First of all, the question of how we know something or how we can be sure about something has never been answered to everyone’s satisfaction. Some will say that the scientific method does that for us but I say that such methods deal only with probabilities not certainties. There are those that will say that God is the ultimate source of knowledge but I say that God is very selective about the information that he reveals to us. In reality, we must each make our own way through this life with only vague and unclear guideposts as to the route. For some those vague and ill-written signs are sufficient but many of us would like the path marked more clearly. I suppose that’s why the quote from Robinson that appears at the bottom of my posts resonates with me.
Welcome Tim. I really feel your pain and sense of mourning at your loss of faith. This is a place where we, in part, fulfil our baptismal covenants to ‘mourn with those that mourn.’
While there are some answers to some questions, few are fully answered with total satisfaction. I sorry for you that you’re so conflicted. It’s natural to feel angry, hurt, deceived, disappointed. In the short term, let this website be your ‘outlet’ for letting off steam in a safe place.
I hope it will be a comfort to you to know that some have asked the same questions as you and still found ways and reasons to fully engage with the church.
I’ve not yet reached any conclusions, but I (currently) feel more at peace with my choice to remain active. Not because I’ve resolved all the issues and doubts but because I’ve accepted them as perhaps constant companions that have lead to an ‘adapted’ approach to making mormonism work for me.
Like you my stool was based on a conviction of the Book of Mormon, a certainty through spiritual confirmation and evidence of the impact of the principles.
Welcome to a place where you can start making a new stool.
Here are a few of my thoughts on how ‘absolute claims’ are useful, even when they might not be absolutely true/correct.
http://manyotherhands.blogspot.com/2013/02/if-two-churches-claim-only-absolute.html?m=1 Orson, alltruth, Tumult, Thoreau, westfield, Gerald, mackay, and many others: I truly am moved by your Christ-like love and concern for anonymous nobodies like myself. I’ll get through this. I have spent lots of time thinking and figuring things out. I feel better, and more grounded every day. I talked to my wife, who was more understanding than I thought she would be, and I’m committed to retaining and developing more Christ-like love and tolerance at church like what you have shown. I know that I don’t want to become bitter and vindictive like so many others that have left the church, so StayLDS seems like a good place for me. I’m grateful for it, and for kind and good members of this board, who tolerate questions and lack of faith.
Like the above post. You’re in a good place Tim.
I don’t believe I welcomed you. Thanks for your story. Many others here are in the same boat… or at least the dinghy being towed behind. A few ideas…
Firstly, you are not logical, you are emotional like every other human being. Logic is only a fraction of you. To be completely logical would mean that you could not interact with other people. Like other human beings, many of your “logical” decisions are in fact emotional ones retroactively rationalized. If you attempt to be completely logical, it won’t be good for you either. I mean enjoying films, music, art, sports, novels… none of these are logical. Imagine if you chose your wife and dealt with her solely on “rational” grounds… doesn’t bear considering does it?
Secondly, evolution is not a problem. Why do American fundamentalists bang on about it? It helps them dodge the social gospel, e.g. look after the poor etc. Evolution does not disprove God, despite what literalists such as creationists and Richard Dawkins feel (and he feels more than he thinks too)
Remember our degree of intelligence puts us above the animals, but it is our compassion and artistic nature that puts us above calculating machines.
I’ll come back to the BoM and Mr Jeffs later.
It appears Tim is my twin. I welcome another logical thinker. Mmmmm evolution. Some say the church is Ok with it. That is just bogus. For 150 years it was preached as wrong, it is only recently that it is gaining acceptance because the evidence is so overwhelming. If it is fact today it was fact 150 years ago and the leaders should have seen it and accepted it. I will bet the vast majority of Mormons over 50 still reject it. I know I did for years because of my Mormon upbringing.
I get the whole 99.9% thing. That was a big one for me.
In the end there are so many logical holes in the church for me that I do not believe any of it anymore, but then there is family so I press onward.
Considering we spend a third of our lives in a subconscious completely irrational dreamstate and at least another third emoting and trying to read other’s emotional needs (while subconsciously reading body language etc)… humans definitely flunk the Vulcan test to the point of being disqualified for a resit. The fact we look after our families and friends, appreciate culture, feel emotion and worry about anything at all makes us human and utterly illogical.
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